Ariel and Commander metalwork

[ebb]

Good to hear Roger W is going strong, and Bristol Bronze still makes things.
The 1" rudder post - TILLER YOKE (BB3101) $215
and - RUDDER HEAD (BB3901) $245
certainly in the catalog drawing on page 29 looks like our oringinal honking tiller head assembly.
Personally think it a very heavy and awkward fitting, but have been interested in getting the rudder head part because the old one on A338 is chewed up.
The keyway is worn (channel sides no longer 90 degrees), the tightening/squeezing bolt area is a mess and imco not designed really to be able to close the nearly 1/6" gap to tighten it around the shaft.
Perhaps the old rudder head has gotten work-hardened over the years and a fairly newer cast one from Bristol would squeeze better? $245 plus shipping

A worn keyway is a real problem because any looseness or wobble wears the keyway more.
The square key mating the two channels in the head and rudder shaft is doing ALL the work!
The problem may be the key (1/4" 316) which is probably harder than what Bristol used to make the rudder head. The key in the keyway should not move at all.
Not sure if this is solvable.
Do think that customizing the 3/8" hinge bolt so that there are NO threads except for the nut only where the nut tightens is a way to lessen wear and tighten up the hinge parts. The head cannot be drilled out for the next size up bolt.
The tiller yoke/strap bolt has to be shimed somehow (thin bronze and/or delrin washers?) so that wobble here is reduced to zero. Good luck.


All this to ask the board here if anyone got themselves a new rudder head (BB3901) and matched it up with their old tiller yoke (BB3101)?

Is it a match, exact match, for our original rudder head?

I wouldn't want to have to get the whole fitting from Bristol. $455 plus shipping!
and the price list is dated 2008.

[bill@ariel231]

I have seen the part in person. It is a good match dimensionally. The departure from original is that roger through drills the hole for the shaft and keyway vice the blind hole and domed surface of the original

[ebb]

What a calamity!
Don't tell me the keyway is milled all the way to the top too?

Bill, something is jogging in my head....
Is this the fitting (the one that still has a top) that you drilled and tapped in two set screws?

That would be the only way on a thru-drilled head that you could keep the head where it was supposed be. Otherwise it would slip. Unless the keyway had ends. Certainly the keyway in the new shaft on A338 doesn't end in the correct place so the key in the head would HAVE to be captured, and I can't see how that would work.
UNLESS YOU TAP IN TO THE KEY WITH A SET SCREW ?
But with an open top rudder head that alone would NOT keep the head from slipping on the shaft. But might work pretty good in the old one.

Have to add in the screws, only way!
Went and got the head here
and I can see that it will be fairly easy to add a couple set screws.
Sorry about my memory....but larger set screws can easily be put in at 90degrees from the keyway into the rudder shaft. Meaning thru the sides of the fitting.
What size? Bigger the better here, I guess. 3/16 / 1/4" ?

If you put a set screw into the keyway, that would be 1/8"?
Bill, grant me enlightenment, it's not too late!

Now I recall you saying that you better remember to back these screws out when taking the head off the shaft!

Since I guess you DID DO THIS, how has it worked out?.... problems?
Thanks, Bill

[bill@ariel231]

it has been about 3 years since i last saw the bristol bronze tillerhead casting. I definitely recall the shaft thru drilled. as for the key way, i think it was also thru but i may be wrong there.

roger does his own machining so you can ask for the keyway any way you like it in a new casting.

as for the set screws.. my shaft key way is 1/4 inch. i put two set screws in the body of the tillerhead i can't remember the size exactly, they look like 1/8th. the set screws bearing down on the key stock definitely took a lot of play out of the tillerhead to shaft connection. I drilled and tapped only the tillerhead, the set screws were installed so as to pressed the key into the keyway on the shaft. i got 8 or 9 years of service with tiller head after i added the set screws before i found one in a consignment shop with less wear.

[Ariel 109]

Jerry,

I'm of a few minds about those coaming name plates. You can easily find a company out there that can restore the original Pearson plates. Plating and polishing can get rid of the pitting. There are plenty of ways to reattach with solder broken parts on pot-metal. I've had work done like this on old motorcycles I've owned. Parts that were pretty rough came out beautiful. But if you had them made out of bronze I'm sure they would stand a better chance of holding up while getting knocked about in a marine environment. I bet the re-plating price will be close to or more than getting new bronze parts from Bristol Bronze. And I'm a fan of patinaed bronze over chrome plating on a sailboat. Lastly, I'm sure most of us are missing those pieces because our Ariel and Commander ancestral owners got sick of taking them off and then back on each time they re-varnished their coamings.

On the builder's plate issue I would leave yours be. It's in pretty good shape for it's age. The enamel is intact. It's your old girl's lucky dog tag.

If anyone has a spare original Pearson builder's plate, any condition from a lost hull I would like one for my Ariel. My plan is to weld over the old number and re-stamp it with 109. Those two bare screw holes, which once held the my boat's builder's plate, in the lazarette bulkhead stare at me when ever I go sailing, kind of like a Steven King story, egads!

[ebb]

Great!
Yes, can see keeping the key immobile and exactly were you want it with TWO.
It's also possible to get the head off with the key under pressure from the screws, without catastrophic damage.
The set screws are hidden in the back under the hinge bolt so it's possible to screw things up.
It's a great failsafe upgrade!

[bill@ariel231]

regarding the builders plate topic... A231's plate was twisted at some point in the past and the blue enamel flaked off. is there a process for restoring the blue enamel or is a fix with blue gelcoat the best path forward??

[Commander 147]

[QUOTE=Ariel 109;23847]On the builder's plate issue I would leave yours be. It's in pretty good shape for it's age. The enamel is intact. It's your old girl's lucky dog tag.
QUOTE]

I sure don't want to mess with lady luck!!!

And the more I thought about it the more I liked the idea of the bronze logo on the dark coamings. I think it would just look better.

Thanks for your input Ben.

[Commander 147]

OK, Kyle if you would like to have the logo that has all 3 prongs on the spear then send me your mailing address and I will send it to you. Roger is sending me 2 new bronze ones in a week or so.

[Lucky Dawg]

That would be great! Thanks a ton.

[ebb]

The Pearson Oval builder's plate that came off A338 is some sort of dull silver pot metal that hasn't corroded in any way I can see. Looks almost crisp and new.
It does NOT have the BluePeter color background and there doesn't seem to be any sign of scraping or wire pad marks.
There is around the letters tiny pits that look like what you'd see if the piece were sandcast and too close to the embossed letters to be buffed away.
It's obviously not pressurecast pot metal.

Across the bottom of the oval it stands embossed as BRISTOL, RHODE ISLAND, U.S.A.
(Trip to the Jersey Shore thread - post 124 - the S-boat oval Herreschoff builder's plate is a dead ringer for the Pearson's. Assume except for size and material, the proportions and lettering exactly the same!)

The drawing in the Bristol Bronze catalog also shows an oval generic builder's plate that has PEARSON across the top
and PORTSMOUTH, RHODE ISLAND, U.S.A.

Assuming Roger has not made any of the Bristol plates, is there any interest in this Forum in having a bronze plate made?
My (assume original) pot metal plate looks in pretty good shape.
I might be persuaded to mail it to Roger
so he can use it as a casting model
IF I get a written promise from him to return it. And a bronze one that I will of course pay for.


Anybody interested in a bronze BRISTOL, RHODE ISLAND builder's plate?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
I haven't taken the time to read all our posts here or in the archive threads.
I apologize if somebody else has got this going and I missed it.
Would like my Ariel's number stamped in the field of the bronze plate with the same large numbers as my original. May depend on the price Roger wants and a concensus here of what the cost should be for plates buffed and ready to mount with the boat's number stamped.

[Ariel 109]

I thought the builder plates were made from bronze. In the pictures I've seen the exposed metal has a green oxidation. Now I realize it's just the underlying plating of copper that held the chrome to what I believe is an aluminum casting. That complicates a restoration of the glass enamel a little. But there are ways.....

Ebb, I'd love a bronze builder's plate.

[ebb]

Hey Ben, Great!
So I took the plate off the wall where it was hanging on a nail with the 'new' bronze Pearson Ariel logos.

It measures 3 13/16" X 2 5/16" and is about 3/32" thick.
Has a surprising heft to it, definitely could be bronze. But under the kitchen lights
it is a glitzy silvery colior, with even more of the sand casting marks.
Would make a better belt buckle than a real builder's plate!

Put a couple new bats in the gram scale and it weighs in at 3oz.
So it has to be some sort of exotic lead/silver/something alloy rather than the usual zinc/aluminum/whatever like old diecast car door handles were made with.

It certainly LOOKS acceptable. Has four small scratches.
The boat's number is banged in - slightly crooked - with 3/16" numbers.
Can see the effect of the punching on the backside of the plate which overall shows the mini-pores of sandcasting.

Certainly has more going for it than the plastic plate that Roger says in the catalog he used as mold for his PORTSMOUTH plates.

Haven't called Roger yet. He may have these BRISTOL plates in stock, but never made it to his catalog.
The A338 plate would reproduce in bronze a more authentic looking plate imco.
And naturally, being cast by Roger, will be authentic!!!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
By the way this plate is made for glass enameling. There is a raised border around the perimeter,
around the two mounting holes, all the lettering is raised, and so is the 'field' where the numbers are stamped.
In plain bronze with a jewel-like medium blue it'll sparkle like a sapphire on a ring in the cockpit.
Might want to bang in the numbers before the plate goes into the oven to have the glass melted.
Now THAT'S bling!

[bill@ariel231]

A-231's plate is also missing the blue background and is clean enough to pull a mould. i am in roger's backyard. ebb, if you want to make contact with roger on a bristol ri old school pattern i can act as clerk of the works and offer A-231's plate as a sample (of course, i will also want to get my original plate back!)

Another good option is Mystic River Foundry...

[ebb]

! ! ! My bloody plate is BRONZE... ! ! ! .
It was the cheap looking silver color on it that threw this fool off.

Took a dremel carbide bit to the backside and ground into the bronze.

Whatever the thin plating on the bronze I don't think it can be removed
so I'd still be interested in a plain bronze copy. And have it glass enameled.
My theme for bronze on the boat is to let it all go brown or green.
What's that called: funky chic?

It is a NICE casting.
And I just know that somebody will point out that the silvery plating will compliment the glass enameling, because silver (or maybe it's nickle) makes a better mirror effect than a copper color would!