Cabin Sole Refinishing

[ebb]

You will read that WestSystems wants teak strips solvent washed not more than 30 minutes befor epoxy gluing teak to a deck.
(By the by System Three totally disagrees with WestSystem's use of epoxy to glue teak strips to a deck and making an epoxy 'caulk' line that would normally have two-part polysulfide.)

Acetone is not actually a benign solvent. But it has been traditionally used as a solvent and medium cleaner for polyester and epoxy work on boats.....without directly killing workers. (lesser evil than MEK for instance.) So dewax with instant drying ACETONE, not naptha or lacquer thinner as sometimes advised.

Since we don't know what epoxy you are using, it may be best to wipe the top teak/holly ply surface with acetone just befor applying epoxy. BUT
FIRST
I would wet wipe a test scrap to get a feel for it, see if anything happens to the wood and its glue lines.
If it seems OK, only then would I wipe the plywood surface with a DAMP acetone rag, just in case some shenanagans were used to put the holly strips into the teak. Keep solvent out of the wood seams. Never know.

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Thanks again for the reminder. I knew about the solvent wash on the teak but had not considered the glue line between the teak and the holly. That was a very good point to keep in mind. Thanks

[Hull376]

Epoxy the dickens out of your new plywood. I missed a few spots in 2003 and had to redo it two years later as water seeped in the edges and soon the new sole looked black around the edges. Water will get on the sole, and it will find its way into the plywood unless you seal it up really well. I used lots of epoxy to glue the newest floor down, the edges were filled in with epoxy so no way water could even get to the edges this time around. I pity anyone who tries to remove this sole 40 years from now. its now permanent. After sanding, i applied a good poly finish. It can be redone many times because the expoxy is at least 3 coats thick.

[Commander 147]

Thanks Kent

Other people's experiences are always good to hear.

[commanderpete]

The formulation of a lot of products tends to change over time because of VOC regulations and such.

This product mentions being suitable for wood decks. You might want to call ask how slippery it is.

http://www.waterlox.com/products/

[ebb]

for what it's worth:
Products like Gymseal which may once have been pure tungoil coatings/varnish (like Le Tonkinois) have disappeared.
They have been replaced with polyurethane coatings.
These coatings often are hard skins that tend to get water under them and bubble or lift off eventually.
Not all of them. So research has to be done.
That includes what has worked for others.
And not all experience will match our/your set of conditions.
Obviously the manufacturer of a teak sole will have recommendations Have to look into that.

Unless grit or something like pumice is introduced into your last coat on the sole, ANYTHING WILL BE SLIPPERY WHEN IT GETS WET, even a hardwood basketball/gym court. Including pumice.

If you want your sole to shine like a Steinway, maybe a temporary nonslip devise like a tubmat is the way to go - just remove it when you want to impress yourself again how lucky you got with that finish!

I have a feeling that LeTonkinois will make a long lasting traditional looking cabin sole finish.
I know somebody will use it to seal ALL the edges of the plywood. IE, NO EPOXY! And finish the job off with hot grand piano gloss. A suction cup shower mat might work very well on a surface like that and could make a safe antiskid. Who's going to be first????
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EDIT. More thinking about it: a dandy varnished sole is very desirable. Vinyl tub mats are universally awful in colors and smell. www.floormatshop.com has a 16"X27" very utilitarian suction cup mat in royal blue and beige. (Type in > homz gripper < in the search boz)
Befor you buy check out the outgassing problem that many of these products have. The recycle symbol somewhere on the product if it is PVC is a 3 inside a triangle - PVC IS NOT RECYCLABLE. The odor is coming mostly from those deadly phthalates that soften vinyl and make the suction cups work like suction cups. See WISEGEEK, What is Polyvinyl Chloride? We have met the enenmy and it is the plastic we use! It would seem that a suction cup non skid mat could be made with polyethylene?

[Commander 147]

Thanks Commander Pete and Ebb

I had already investigated the Ulitmate Sole product and found that it is indeed out of production and no longer available.

As far as the finish goes on my sole I'm one of those people that feels function is ALWAYS first and then form is brought up to it's best level after function. And so far in my mind coating all sides with a couple layers of epoxy to keep water from delaminating the floor and then following that up with a high UV protection layer (or layers) to keep the epoxy in good condition takes care of the function part with the exception of the slippery issue. I want the sole to look good but I don't need it to be a furniture finish. I don't even think that is desireable because it lowers functionality (by getting more slippery) so I would steer away from that tack. I'm just trying to get to the best compromise with function having a higher priority than form.

[ebb]

Jerry,
Well, Being in the same boat so to speak......
WHAT is the answer?

Look into SKID SAFE - New Dimension Solutions
www.ndclean.com/skidsafe.html
scroll down through a bunch of words to a box that says 'pictures'
Inside you'll find steps that are bright and shiney, you can see wood, but you'll have to admit it isn't furniture.
Whatdoyathink?

Whatever the stuff is, it is a low VOC water borne coating, probably a polyurethane,
that you add some sort of aggregate to, that will stick well to epoxy,
according to the hype.
"pleasant under bare feet - unnoticable when looking at the completed application."
Nothing about maintenance or recoating. No mention of marine or boat decks.
Apply with a MOP! - cotton or urethane sponge ("Do not use a roller!") - 4 coats min. - goes on thin.

nope, haven't tried it. Anybody who has, or does, let us know!
[ooooooops! dang, that hurt! Slipped on that. Man, that's aggravating.]
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
Nothing is so aggravating than calmness. Oscar Wilde

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Nice find. I read through all the material and looked at the pictures. Looks like I need to call the company which I will do after they open today. I have two concerns which I need to ask them about. The first is UV protection. I did not see anywhere that said anything about UV protection ability of the product. And epoxy needs UV protection so I need to verify where that issue stands.

The second thing I noticed is that the product has to be applied in "moderate to low humidity levels". Which will drastically reduce the periods throughout the year that I can use the product. I need to find out what relative humidity levels they are talking about when they say "moderate to low humidity levels". They are located in Nevada where humidity levels do not even resemble the levels here in Florida.

They mention the material breathes which is also how Cetol describes their product. It may be that I need to do epoxy first, then somthing that will give me UV resistance and then finally the Skidsafe product.

I'll report back after I can talk to them about these issues. Is there anything you want me to ask them?

[ebb]

ayeduno what to ask?
Why no mention of UV? I just did a quick scan of their whole bloody site!
Their warranty is five to seven years on what looks like outdoor stuff like swimpools and the like - including high traffic areas.

Scanned their Data Sheet, which makes application sound like we need to practice how to do it befor doing it. And they suggest that!!!
It's a new system with an unknown material.
They also at one point imply that dusting on the aggregate on to a wet application is a choice.
As if there are some applications where we would NOT use the added aggregate.

So, IS there a antiskid quality when the aluminum oxide is not added to your sole?
With a boat we want ALL the antiskid we can get!
Is the stuff sharp? Maybe not to the bottoms of feet, but would it be to a naked knee?

There is a 5day totally wet limit for the system, it is not for underwater or totally wet areas. Maybe that is why marine is not mentioned. It will turn white but upon drying will go back to its transparent state. How damp are you?

[What kind of a flooding episode would the cabin sole survive with our other alternatives.
How difficult is it to refurbish the system (ie Skid Safe - or a hard polyurethane - or LeTonkinois)
Just maintenance is an issue as well.]

Is the aggregate dusted on after the last coat? SIX COATS are required when using the aggregate. And each coat has to DRY. But not cure, one assumes.
Do they have a tip for applying the GRIT? I remember using grated cheese jars (pizza parlor) with perforated tops in ground walnut shell antiskid apps.
Can more liquid be put on over antiskid early layers to deaden oxide sharpness?
Is there a waiting time befor a subsequent coat can be added?

I'd ask them about touch up, repair, and recoating. And maybe, if the person you are talking with understands, whether it can be successful in our app on the cabin sole.

What alternative applicators can we use to apply the stuff, can they recommend a brush???
Clean brush withsoap and water?

Hopefully a quart will be enough for our tiny area, What is it - about 15 square feet?

Apropos your location, will blowing ambient moist air over the sole with a fan help dry it?
jabajabajaba

[Commander 147]

Well, looks like the questions will need to wait a while longer... you never get to talk to an actual person any longer when you call a company you get to talk to someone's voice mail. So we will see if Daniel calls me back.

[ebb]

Jerry, here's a blog with photo support. So we get to see the product in use - which always helps.
Chestnut Cottage Chapter II Defined Design
www.defineddesign.com/chestnut-cottage-chapter-2


The stuff comes in a very unassuming jug.

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Just left another message for Daniel to call (got his voice mail again) but in the meantime I checked out your link. I found it interesting that in the directions for Skid Safe they say use a high quality mop (ureathane) but DO NOT use yellow sponge mop. In one of the blog's pictures it sure looks like they were using a yellow sponge mop. :-)

This stuff going on looks just like the water based polyureathanes I have used with my HVLP sprayer when building furniture projects. It goes on milky white and dries very clear. Actually it dries more clear than any oil based product will. The oil based products always have a tint of yellow. Some manufacturers of water based products even started adding yellow tint to make their product more widely accepted.

OK so back to waiting on Daniel again.

[Commander 147]

Daniel did finally call back yesterday but my grandsons came over while I was talking to him and I did not get to post this until now.

I got the impression Daniel was not of an engineering or chemistry background but more of a PR person who did not have any more information available to him than the website provided. In response to my questions he said the following.

1.) As far as the UV resistance he could not tell me level of protection the product would provide. He did tell me he would check it out and e-mail me the answer but I have not seen anything yet.

2.) As far as the humidity levels goes during application again he could not tell me a specific level of relative humidity that was too high but said instead that if the levels were high then it would still cure but it would take longer. He did not have a good idea of how much longer for specific levels of relative humidty.

3.) As far as the aggregate goes he indicated that in our application he would recommend using it. His statement was that if there is a potential for the floor getting wet then it should be used. I have to apologize that with my grandsons standing in front of me waiting for me to get off the phone I did not quiz him more on the non-skid characteristics of the product without the aggregate.

4.) As far as applying the aggregate he said it should go down after the first coat and then apply 5 more coats over the top of it. He did not have any ideas for differant methods of applying it such as your grated cheese shaker which by the way sounds like a pretty good idea, he simply said just sprinkle it on.

5.) As far as asking him about the courseness of the aggregate and one's ability to kneel on it without high levels of discomfort he said "it could be sharp but doesn't have to be". He indicated that the added 5 layers of the material on top of the aggregate would soften it's feel.

6.) As far as the drying time between coats he said wait until the material is dry to the touch (does not stick to your finger when you touch it) and you can recoat. He said it is better to apply all six coats as soon as possible that way.

7.) Daniel told me that the material was very easy to repair if damaged. He said you could apply it to the damaged area and it would blend very well with the surrounding surfaces. He said it would not be necessary to apply another coat to the entire surface to make it look good.

8.) When it comes to application tools Daniel recommended a high quality sponge. When I asked him if a brush was ok he said it would be better to use one of those sponge brushes.

9.) Daniel said a quart would be enough material for all 6 coats of our small cabin soles.

10.) When asked about the materials ability to withstand flooding he indicated that flooding for short periods ( a few hours or maybe a day) would be recoverable from but not long time frames.

11.) Daniel did not really know if a fan blowing over the drying material in a humid climate would help much or not.

Bottom line from my perspective is that Daniel could not instill in me the confidence to jump in with both feet so to speak. I hope he does respond to me about the UV characteristics aspect because that is an important piece of the puzzle.

[ebb]

Jerry, that's really too bad about that Daniel character.
Myself has no patience anymore.
Salesmen are always tested for their practical knowledge.
If they are not up to it, or BS by skewing the subject, right or wrong I'll drop my interest in the product.
There's always an alternative.

It is ALL about ENTHUSIASM. (viz that wonderful Schwab quote!)
That would also be my key to suss the capability of a product for my application.
Information has to be forthcoming. That's why I hate politicians.

[Developed a real trust in Paul Oman of epoxyproducts.com, because the many times I talked with him on the phone or in emails the guy knows the products he is flogging. He's personally tested them out.
Stumpted him a time or two, but he would flat out say he didn't know. Develops trust.
Another trustworthy guy who is of course entusiastic about his products is Steve Smith of Smith&Co (CPES - All Wood Epoxy - Ten Year Gloss(something like that). He has evolved into a techpoet walker - he blogs somewhere on the net.]

Salesmen do suffer fools though, because sometimes we don't ask the right questions.

TOO BAD
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Edit. About refinishing. How easy/difficult would it be to refinish the sole if we coated with SkidSafe&grit? Can imagine a wear pattern emerging in the surface that couldn't be fixed by adding more product and aggregate. How do we sand aluminum oxide aggregate? Would we have to use a stripper. Would the stripper be one that doesn't eat the epoxy precoats. Who the hell wants to use a stripper anyway. Carbide hand scrappers? So refurbishing the sole becomes a problem - maybe.

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White aluminumm oxide, the SkidSafe aggregate, is a very sharp blasting medium. Probably comes in a variety of grit sizes. And probably is readily available. Could sprinkle it into your favorite polyurethane coating. Favorite p.urethane coating already has an added UV inhibitor, no doubt.
Maybe an Edison version of your signoff would be "..... does unlimited experimenting" ! ! !
[gotta fictional product name for us: Seatol TruGrit]