Fruits Of My Labor (A-113)

[Tony G]

After several days of measuring and drawing pictures (and a visit to the chiropractor) I think I have a handle on how best to proceed with the forward 'cabin'. We'll just have to see if I overlooked some minor but critical detail that might throw up a roadblock.

First off, the original bulkhead that separated the chainlocker from the v-berth had to come out. Last week, in some delusion fantasy I thought a new bulkhead could be glued in forward of the original such that I could use the original bulkhead to attach some 'struts' or some other means of holding the new piece in just the right place making installation that much easier.... What!?! You see, that's what winter does to the brain up here. Being there was a few other spots that needed the loving attention of an angle grinder and 24grit it was as good a time as any to extricate the vintage plywood. It was not as difficult as removing the ice box but not an easy task either. After cutting through as much tabbing as possible with the 4 1/2" grinder and the sawzall as far as I could reach the bulkhead was still firmly attached to the hull via a couple of nails driven into the stringers and some of that mysterious, funky blue bondo found throughout these boats. So I made a vertical cut with the sawzall through the plywood from the chainlocker opening down to the small drain opening on the bottom of the bulkhead figuring that I would be able to gain some leverage and 'wiggle' the pieces free. Much to my horror as I finished the cut the bulkhead pulled apart about 1/8" to 3/16"! I froze thinking the bow was going to split open. No creaks, no snaps, no light peaking in from outside.

I crawled out and took a walk around the front of the trailer to see if I noticed any change or damage. Everything looked good. The single bow pad was still loose as I had left it a couple of weeks ago when we releveled her. So I concluded that it must have been some stress induced from sitting on her keel for so long. I try not to think about it much or start worrying. These hulls are tough! Not to worry.

After cleaning up the dust and debris I remembered that I had always intended to continue the stringers up to the bow like Ebb had done. So out came the grinder again to clear the way for those. Then came the final sweep-up for the day and a good washing. Man, I sure wish I had removed the chainlocker bulkhead before I started retaping the hull/deck seam. It's tons easier working up front near the stem with all that stuff out of the way.

[Commander 147]

Tony

Never let it be said that you do anything half way.

It is always so much easier to get rid of anything in the way and start from scratch when doing a project like you are doing. I can't wait to see what goes back in.

[ebb]

It's too late for lit'lgull to have her forward bulkhead repositioned.

I'm convinced NOW that I want samson posts for mooring (and maybe have the bowsprit bear against.)
It would have been real sweet to have a sturdy bulkhead right there inside where thru-deck samson-struts could be bolted to!


Not possible to imagine how any bolt-to-the-deck bollard OR stainless samson post can be installed strong enough to hang a three ton boat from in a blow.

I'll have to somehow connect the posts to the hull inside with braces and brackets or a molded in frp socket. Along with doublers under the deck, maybe have a cross beam in front of the posts.
I'll be a problem in a now really restricted area!!!

You are at square one, Tony, if you're planning a foredeck for anything but a marina tie-up!
Interested to see what you come up with.

[Tony G]

I have about three days here where I can get some work done and then I'm away from the boat for a couple weeks. That'll be hard being she's prime for working on and I'm prime for workin'! I wanna see some progress.

It's all pretty straight forward, as far as what's going back in. No frills and a mess less than I was going to try the first time around. Striving to stick with 'form follows function' philosophy. You know-KISS

I am planning for on the hook and off the grid and into some diving again. As much as I loved SCUBA we'll be leaning toward free diving out of practicality. That's how I started anyhow! And I remember having a blast doing it too!

I like the the idea of a sampson post, Ebb. But I am trying to reduce the number of things poking up through the deck. I suppose there is an easy way to keep them water tight and dry. And they sure would add to the stability of a sprit. I'm just looking to add a secure eye for a solent stay and a bit more room to stretch out if I have to take to the v-berth. Although, I really like the sprit(?)/anchor platform on them thar Nor'sea 27s. If we put a sprit on the nose I'm contemplating switching out the stem fitting for a simple strap like the backstay. What do ya think about that?

[ebb]

Stem Strap. Yes many boats have that. Would save weight if you're going with anchor roller/channels.Remember you have to incorporate another attachment point for the foot of the sail.
Another plate.
Bingham, (the Sailor's Sketchbook pg80/81) has idea drawings of stem and double anchor roller weld ups which might be very useful for a small cruiser. Something like that would slip over the Ariel nose.
And maybe even reuse the 8" bolt for the major attachment. That's the one that goes through the top hole in the original and exits through curve of the toerail/nose. Imco a VERY strong forestay attachment method.


If your Solent is coming from a lower position on the mast but to the stemhead fitting, don't you already have a third hole in the fitting that can be used for that?

[Tony G]

If your Solent is coming from a lower position on the mast but to the stemhead fitting, don't you already have a third hole in the fitting that can be used for that?

Our current plan is to attach the solent as close to the top of the mast as I can get without interfering with the furler. (I know the furling vs. hank on argument-but I have a new furler and new head sail cut to it so I'm going to use it.) Then put a (what do you call it?) fitting about two feet back from the stem. A line drawn through these two points would intersect a point on the sheer a few inches above the waterline . That point is about as far as I can comfortably reach over the side of the bow. So I think that would be a good place to mount a sturdy 'U' bolt or eye that an anchor chain snubber could be attacted to. The backing hardware for this snubber attachment point could serve as an attachment for even more hardware that would secure the solent's hardware to the hull as well as the deck thereby taking some of the strain off of the deck whe the solent is being used. If we add a couple of inches of teak into the mix for an anchor platform/sprit that should strengthen everything up a little more yet.

[ebb]

GOT IT!
Actually got it backwards.
If the reason for a solent stay is because you have a permanent furler on the forestay, then in theory the solent will be used for the storm sail - hanked on.
That would mean you can put the attachment point for the solent as far forward as you need to and even get a decent sized staysail.

The attachment for a storm sail in the Ariel deck is pretty technical, I think.
If the solent is more forward then the 'U-bolt' can be backed up with a turnbuckle to a strongpoint built into the stem. I mean a turn buckle more forward would be less in the way in the chain locker.

[At one point I imagined a reverse eye in the stem, attached thru the stem with the eye inside!
Desperate measures - don't know if it is practical - but you do need imco more backup than what you can get with our composite deck and plywood.]

A Solent stay is a movable stay.
ABI is out of business and their Hyfield lever no longer available.
Johnson makes a nice backstay turnbuckle with integrated levers for tensioning that have been used for Solent stays by others.
Might be worth looking into. 5/16", $400!

[Tony G]

wether you spell it hyfield or highfield it is high bucks and hard to find! I've run across a few used ones but they have been for a much bigger stay diameter than practical for my needs.

Some plan-B, C and D ideas include:

[CapnK]

Instead of a Hyfield, consider perhaps a small (say 1/4"w sheaves) high-load set of blocks w/a 4 or 6-1 purchase, reeved with Amsteel or other synthetic line. Use a normal 1x19 shroud made up shorter than needed with a thimble on the low end, attach blocks with to that with a shackle, and same attachment* for them to your deck fitting. That line could even be led aft so that you could slack the solent when tacking.

Just a thought...

---------------------------------------

*...what's the strength rating on a lifeline pelican hook?

[ebb]

Bosun;s Supply have 6" UNRATED CAST 316 pelican hooks for about $24. Bet they are chinese.
Maybe it or something more substantial could be used with a gun tackle?

Can't see having a rope tackle permanently deployed because of UV issues. But why not?
But I'd like to see the set up visavis the staysail and the gear.
IE how and where is the storm sail hanked on?
What pounds are needed to get the stay taut?

In a blow the solent also is helping to keep the mast UP.
In fact that redundancy on a cruiser is it's selling point.

Storm sail should have a set of reefpoints. Correct?

[Tony G]

Kurt, you're there!

My latest google search for solent stay brought up a page with Super Duper Joe Cooper (as I like to call him*) using a multi-purchase block system and high tec lines for both the tensioning and the stay. There was a photo of the 'stay' after some use and it looked pretty worn where the hanks had been working but Joe states that when they stress tested the line to failure it actually parted somewhere other than the worn spots. I believe it was vectran and sspectra lines they used. Now I'll probably find out in a couple of years that this sort of set-up is absolutely outstanding and dependable but right now I just worry that the lines will wearout too quickly. Although it would be easy enough to repair/replace as long as the sails or other equipment doesn't get damaged beyond feild repair.

I was going to add pictures but here is the link. http://www.practicallysailing.com/bl...ailing-rigging

I don't think a pelican hook has the strength we're looking for. Ironic isn't it as they are part of the 'life line' set-up. Figure 9.5 above is in the Pardey's Capable Cruiser 3rd ed. (diagram courtesy the www). I did buy the book and they claim it can easily be made using stainless or bronze and a bandsaw. ?Don't they realize that people like me buy their books? I'm leaning in that direction.

*Joe cooper was the 'customer rep.' that I dealt with for 113's new mainsail and foresail. He would actually check in with me to see how things were going and give me an update on sails and stuff. He was a real personable guy and has a great sense of humor to boot.

[Commander227]

I agree with Epiphany,
We have been replacing wire standing rigging and lifelines with spectra and relatives more and more. Its cheap, incredibly strong, easy to throw in an eye splice or a bowline, you can keep a spool on board and replace anything your self on the go. There are coated varieties that are better with the UV or you can use Rob line or similar and have the spectra core and a nice UV and abrasion resistant cover.

[ebb]

fiber (from the Dynamica site).
5/16" has a 6600# breaking load which is about equal to wire of the same dimension.
If steel wire can take 6500 50% breaking loads (....before what happens?)
Dyamica, dyneema can take 10 million cycles at the same 50% level. That's their comparison.

Very little stretch. If it breaks it won't whip like steel wire.
After two years of constant UV exposure 80% of strength is retained.

Bends recommended at least 5 Xs diameter of rope. Bends for 5/16" Dyneema should be minimum 1 1/2". Sheaves and/or thimbles. Visavis Joe Cooper's experiment.

Defender has a Samson dyneema called Am-Steel-blue for $2.09 ft.
This 5/16' rope has a 13,700# breaking strength. Just repeating the numbers.
It's a 12 strand braided line.
Defender price for 316 1/4" 1X19, 6900#BS = $3.09.

later post....
[Dyneema is seen as an all purpose polyethylene rope. Versatile, bullet proof, floats in water, 40% stronger than Kevlar.
Climbing, towing, mooring, hanging, winching, standing rigging, running rigging.
and picking up on your next post here - why not LIFELINES? Both on the stanchions and tethering a life-ring.
Wouldn't it be nice if our backup rigging is a spool of blue plastic rope that can be used for nearly everything?

Would you do the standing rigging with soft eyes?
Which begs the question, if Dyneema is sensitive to UV why not parcel (friction tape)l and serve (marline) it in the standing rig.
I'm positive galvanized wire is still parceled and served somewhere. Dyneema's downfall is everything SHARP. Serving it would stiffen and protect it.
Real Dyneema comes from Denmark or Greenville NC and is heat set and coated with polyurethane.]

Anybody care to compare wire rope VS Dyneema in terms of replacement?
Dyneema's loss of 20% strength after two years UV exposure IS SIGNIFICANT imco.
But what has happened to 316 stainless in that time period?
Is the Dyneema (as standing rigging) signicantly easier to replace??? Does the mast have to be lowered to do it?

Have to see a tutorial on replacing stainless steel wire with Dyneema rope on an Ariel/Commander.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
Dyneema and Spectra are the same, yet not the same.
google>
PDF Spectra & Plasma Ropes Introduction Puget Sound Ropes (PSR) began...
This paper will give you the lowdown on this fantastic plastic rope.

[Tony G]

That's good stuff there, Ebb!

Well 20% is significant to me also. What about four years? I trust my ability to assemble a Norseman fitting or similar correctly. My splices? While I see them as inherently beautiful and a miraculous feat when I finally crank one out, I would not be as confident knowing my standing rigging is relying on my splices. I do like the idea of a complete standing rigging on a spool in the cockpit locker! My standing rigging was upped to 1/4" two years before I bought her and it has spent it's life indoors since then and I'll bet it has a good bit of life left in it. If it aint broken don't fix it.

I will serioulsy consider using high-tech line for tensioning the solent. Rethreading a couple of blocks every couple of years seems entirely doable for me. I mean, come on, there's only one splice to complete.

I would think replacing standing rigging could still be done one stay or shroud at a time. I just don't want to go up the mast when it's swinging and I can't afford to pay someone else to do it!

[ebb]

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