Fruits Of My Labor (A-113)

[ebb]

Tony, we just don't have the beam of even a Flicker!

Suggestions, you know me, always suggestions.....
Suppose you did have the head where you show the cardboard model.
But instead of hard sides you had soft sides. We've got super Nylon zippers now
- you could have a zip open door in a CANVAS enclosure.

Knees could poke into the sides until the body is settled
- maybe it could be large enough to turn around in.
Could have a second set of zippers that will unzip the whole enclosure and gather it at the side.

A head doesn't get that much use, but it could be made to zip into a private space without too much fuss.
Test it out with cloth model. And it could be made larger because it is temporary. Permanently temporary.

There are many extraordinary fabrics these days there would be something for the job. I like the tan of the cardboard.
It could be a relatively heavy material so that it holds shape without wrinkles or folds. R, why not Sunbrella?
By the same token, more room can be found over where the portside cupboards used to be at the main bulkhead.
Might even have a fold down sink there. But it could be the same fabric enclosure that would be gathered out of the way for open space.
The problem really is that the deck gets in the way of the head. The human head.
The loo would be under a cushion so the function wouldn't be noticed right off.

There would always be the option when using the throne to zip up the canvas cabin - or not.

[Tony G]

Ran up to the boat today after work. I'm really starting to jones for putting some time in on her. A couple of years ago one of the 'guys' pulled the boat and trailer ahead about ten feet. It didn't matter to me at that time because I had enough of the furniture in that I could use those pieces as a benchmark or references as needed. But being we're rearranging things below I thought it would be a good idea to level her according to the scribed waterlines again. Simply used a floor jack, some cinder blocks, assorted pieces of varying thickness of hardwood and plywood and 50' of 5/8" clear vinyl tubing. I didn't bother taking photos because it just wasn't that exciting. But I will say I am happy to have that not-so-laborious yet time consuming task out of the way.

[CapnK]

I lopped out the starboard corner head a while back, partly due to the same concerns Mister Tonygee cites; the hard walls I was using were just too much structure for so little (in use as well as in size) space...

So I bounced the head idea around a while. Put it back up front in the middle for the longest time. Then one day, when I was ripping out the sink and looking at all that space under the companionway, a Thought occurred. All that space there, and when we use the loo, we usually sit anyway...

Lately I've been experimenting with a composting head. I have nearly all the stuff needed to mount a 'traditional' wet head, and was aiming that way, but thought that just for the sake of completeness, if nothing else, I should try the composting head thing... People speak so highly of it, and all...

Well, I "invented" a ~$10 version of those phancy shmancy $1,000 heads (using a 5 gal bucket, an odd-shaped funnel, and a plastic coffee can), and have been using it for about 3 weeks now, and I can attest to the facts of why people like them so much. There really is no odor, none appreciable, other than that of peat moss, and then only if you take the time to try and notice it. And I don't have a fancy fan and tube ventilator, either... Tho' the boat does stay pretty much open 24/7...

And I've been keeping it there under the companionway, in a makeshift, temporary, 'try-b4-u-buy' construct meant to simulate a fold-up water cabinet idea I've been totin' around in me noggin.

This weekend, I took the plunge and cut out the sole platform at the base, thereby recessing the 'posting head bilgeward, so that the top of it sits less than 12" above what is the floor under most of y'alls sinks. I am imagining a curtain that wraps around it to be used as both a privacy- and shower-screen.

It's working out fairly well. I'll play with it a bit more, see what strikes as most practical, then post some photos for y'all who might be interested.

Also, (hijack warning! ) I got my external chainplate bling drilled and somewhat-mostly polished, and the welder is supposed to have finished my tabernacle by now. I'll be poking a stick back up into the sky before the month is out...

[mbd]

Sounds like it's high time for Kurt to start posting some more pics and updates himself!

[Tony G]

No kidding there, Mike! Not only has it been a looongtime coming, but Capt. K has pulled a lot of his photos from this site! That's cutting into my 'research'.

Kurt, I am thinking a composter is the logical way to go...no pun intended. The biggest leap for me was accepting the fact that these hulls are not any bigger than they are. Seems silly, I know, but that is the fact of the matter. Now on we're living within our means in the physical sense. So this guy is really interested in what you've been bouncing around in your noggin. You've lived on board and that is the experience I need to draw on especially when it comes to living space.

And glad you brought up chainplates. I've thought about moving them outside too. Geoff never really addressed what he did, if anything, to the hull for mounting the CPs outside. Some builders go whole hog laying in extra roving and glass where the CP gets bolted. Others incorporate furniture to beef up the area. How much extra(if any) support do you think we need being a smaller boat? And then the nutz-n-boltz stuff like how big, did you make them yourself, how'd polish them, how you're mounting them, etc., etc..

[mbd]

The biggest leap for me was accepting the fact that these hulls are not any bigger than they are. Seems silly, I know, but that is the fact of the matter.

No kidding. When I'm looking at pictures of other boats for my "someday" ideas, the 26-27 foot range is usually in the "wouldn't that be nice" category, whereas the 22 footers are more like "now that could be done". (i.e. the compression post/bulkhead/enclosed head. hint hint!)

Maybe I should start pestering Kurt over on his thread to GIMP it up! Now, I'll let you guys who are actually working on your boats get back to it...

[Bill]

Capt. K has pulled a lot of his photos from this site! ..

Sorry. We lost that setting when upgrading. Attachments no longer removable . . . unless you ask the moderator nicely . . .

[CapnK]

I think I'm sold on the composter idea. The mega-bux unit websites claim "80 uses" for 2 pounds of peat moss, so going solo and assuming 1 use per day, that means I'll get about 2.5 months of usage before I have to empty my 'holding tank'. There's not much that can fail, nothing really mechanically, and that appeals, especially that it negates at least 2 thru-hulls, & there's no fixing costly joker valves or replacing/cleaning tubes full of crud. The space footprint is a lot smaller, too - no tubes or extra space needed for an external holding tank, deck pumpout and below waterline seacock, and tubes to reach those spots...

Right now, I have the bucket sitting down into what was the deep bilge access hole, the square spot under the sink, and so I cannot sit straight up on the throne, the bridgedeck prevents that. But there is ready room to move the contraption forward a bit, if that is needed, for comfort or for someone taller than my 5' 9". Being able to utilize that space normally below the sole really helps a lot.

Chainplates - I'm borrowing a bit from here and there. Craig/Faith has me talked in to using FRP only for purposes of longevity and no maintenance worries, and I'm taking a page from Island Packet with how they distribute the shear forces on their boats.

Their chainplates are basically a grid made of SST plate; think of a sort of elongated TicTacToe board, placed up against the hull inside. Then take fiberglass rope, about a thumbs roundness worth and say 6-8' long, weave it through the grid, and take the two 2-3' 'tails' down onto the hull, getting splayed out farther and farther as you get away from the grid. Think 'long blond ponytail', wet out, and the end spread to cover as much surface area as possible. An upside-down V, where the apex/bottom of the V wraps over the chainplate grid up and around the vertical members, and the tips of the V spread out to distribute the force across a wide area.

I'll use fiberglass pads shaped like below, shooting for thick enough to double hull thickness there, bonded to the hull, and then do the rope thing over those pads to help spread the shear out and down. Bolts come thru the hole in the middle, with big washers and etc...

Regarding the missing pictures - those were linked from my old website, which is why they aren't visible anymore, that site has been gone for 4 years or so... I still have the images floating around, need to check and see if the posts themselves list the image names or numbers so that I could re-upload them... One thing is for sure: It ain't Bills fault!

[Tony G]

Kurt, you're back!

Whoa! Just the thought of having to work on a busted and possibly 'loaded' head is enough for me to consider getting out of sailing! Ok, maybe just sell the boat 'as is' with the crapped-out crapper and buy a different one. And if some folks are put off a bit by the word 'composting' I hear we can call it a 'urine diverting' toilet.

Your chainplates sound very interesting and seem to be a new twist. Is the diagram above your actual chainplate or the backing for chainplate attachment? The IPs have a neat set-up for tying their CPs together and distributing the load. Another plus is the addition of a bonding point for grounding is easily handled too. There are a lot more questions regarding this mod. coming for sure.

[ebb]

I'm a composter too. I got the first one with the miniature seat, I'll always wonder if the name Airhead refers to the buyer. I would definitely get the Nature's Squat, or whatever it's called because it has a more intelligent seat.

BUT, there is a thru-deck for these composters that has always bothered me.
And I have no good solution to its placement.
My composter will be in the remains of the V-berth area on Littlegull.
But wherever you put the thing you have to have a vent AND THE BLOODY HOSE.
The 3" vent itself will work with a solar nicro fan on deck (8" diameter?). Where does it go on an Ariel deck? And how does the hose get to it in the accommodation?

I've thought of adding some sort of half round dorade inspired vents to the outside of the cabin up near the mast. The vent hose to the composter has to be kept in place all the time. Unless there is another solution, that hose is a PITA.


By SST I assume you are talking about stainless steel.
I think interweaving fiberglass 'rope' into holes would be extremely difficult.
You'd be creating odd spaces that would be hard to fill.
AND, since you would not be mechanically fastening the perforated sheet to the hull,
I don't see what is gained by doing this? Plain fiber would probably be stronger imco.

How about carbon fiber, no metal, as some of the racers are doing?
It's available, altho the methodology requires vacuum forming with the stuff.
One intriguing form of cabon fiber is that it is also available in tube form.
You decide the diameter, because it stretches like socks.

It is dangerous to encapsulate s.s.
Though total encapsulation is theoretically possible.
Aluminum plate (6061T6) comes in a variety of perforations.
40% more thickness to aluminum, supposedly equals the strength of s.s.
But you'd have the same encapsulation problem.

Then there is bronze (655). Doesn't matter what you do to it. AND epoxy sticks pretty well if that's what you have to do.
(Littlegull's external chainplates are waiting for me to slap them on. They are all polished and
bling the topsides very nicely. I'm strut bolting through the hull with meranti built-up backing inside. You can cut and shape silicone bronze with handtools.)


Good luck with that frp 'chainplate' idea. Have to see photos!!!

[later edit] Island Packets must have rampant corrosion problems! imco NOT a good idea!
Both with the weld AND with the partial encapsulation of the stainless plate.
Both Pascoe and BrionToss will have you keel-hauled

[ebb]

google
[DOC] View Word Document - The look on my crew's face was priceless

www.Islandpacketphotos.compictures%5CAd_898_word doc
(pretty sure that won't come up.


Scroll on what looks like an email page to get the article.

You will also see pics of Tom's 'string theory' in his repair.
I don't think it'll work, but there you go...
He fixed it so the same stress cracking will happen again!
it's not just me that's having problems with this idea.

[Tony G]

Regarding the missing pictures - those were linked from my old website, which is why they aren't visible anymore, that site has been gone for 4 years or so... I still have the images floating around, need to check and see if the posts themselves list the image names or numbers so that I could re-upload them... One thing is for sure: It ain't Bills fault!

Four years!?!? I just did a RipVanWinkle...

I certainly didn't want to imply that I was faulting you or anyone else nor accusing anyone of nefarious intent or activities. I just really like pictures Was it Mike (mbd) that proposed a photo exchange of everybody's personal files of boat stuff? I think that would be an honorable economic stimulus. All thoses CDs getting purchased uptown and then zipping around the country via the mail. The spring before this last I got a CD from CJ & Laura and I still dig looking at the progress and ideas.

That vent may be my next wrinkle. I'm thinking it's nothing right now but it's going to be a...a...well you put it best, PITA. Can anyone here attest to the odor emitted by said vent hose? Is it worse than a chain locker? Maybe it could be vented up there. We have a ventilator there allready and if you add a couple of holes like Frank and Geoff did that might exhaust it. Is it a 2",3",4"hose? If you can get a pumpout hose through the v-berth a vent hose shouldn't be that much more difficult. If you can't hide a seam, celebrate it!

[ebb]

Both small composters require POSITIVE venting
That something has to draw air from the chamber to some point outside.

It's a rather large hidden extra cost if you go with a day/night nicro vent
Alternatively a small fan can be wired into the boat's system.
A caveat is that both composters need constant air circulation, so if it's wired you have a constant draw,
altho these days you can find very efficient fans. A $10 fan is included in the monster cost of the composter.
First thought is that if you're going to have a 100,000 year old toilet in your boat you might as well go non-electric as well - so I'd look to a solar powered/battery back-up fan.

This type fan and stainless cover has a substantial footprint. In fact wherever you imagine it can go it will sustain many more footprints. These things aren't meant to be trodden on.


But, that said, if you can figure out a way for the forward cowl vent to share the work then that's a fine idea.
But isn't the composter an OUTIE and the cowl vent an INNY?


The little reading you can do about these heads is that they do NOT stink.
If used precisely as instructed.
Infact they can be quite neutral. Have to spike the bottle with white sugar to deodorize! Better be innocuous because my bunk is right over the throne!
The only problem is the legal disposal of liquid and 'solids'
and that it can get too cold inside a boat for the bacterial process in the composter to be happy.
It is another bell curve of learning, but anything is better than wet flushing into a holding tank, pipes valves, anaerobic smells, and ignominious pumpouts at a dock. Even a potopottie has a sickly sweet bad smell.

[Tony G]

Ebbster, mister, mister...

I was thinking of directing the fan discharge into the forward compartment that was originally a chain locker. From there the ventilator could disperse the gas outward. I guess the slight positive pressure of a computer fan would have no chance of overcoming a 10kt. breeze coming in through a dorade. But you'd probably want that one facing downwind as much as possible to draw air out. What about rough weather you ask? Hey, I dunno! That's where the self-draining holes would come in I guess. I am planning on putting a sealing hatch on the old chain locker and using it for not-often-needed-items stowage. You know, like clothes and stuff-Ha!

Seriously though, even if you had a good fitting hatch that wasn't even gasketed I bet the ventilator would handle the air exchange in the chainlocker just fine. Throw in a chainpipe cap and viola! Look at all that air flow! For those with original chainlockers there may be the 'concern' of the exhaust being forced down through the bilge and back up into the main cabin. I don't know how to adress that one...swim with sharks more often and it won't seem so bad?

Regarding the direct wired fan, I recall Kent had a similar, small sized fan wired into his system to keep air circulating while he was away from the boat. He was not concerned with electrical draw as he has a substantial solar panel and a charge controler. Right now I have 110watts of solar and my biggest juice draw will come through a highball glass! So a direct wired fan makes the most sense for me. You are top notch at making things work smoothly and efficiently and most importantly work for you.

I've never noticed how the two words wet and flushing sound rather icky when you put them together.

[Tony G]

Ok, as promised, this time around with patterns!

I raised the platform in the 'berth'/closet/head/workshop another 2 1/2inches. So that's about 4 1/2 inches above the original height. I'm hoping to eek out every inch of room athwartship for sleeping. It will add some additional stowage and a smidgen of bouyancy with water tight compartments. At this level the tops of the compartments are a little more than eight inches above the scribed water line!
In photo one you can kind of get an idea of the height but I've noticed in the past my photos just don't depict proportions very well. The bulkhead for the origainal chainlocker will get pushed forward about 6 inches. Well, actually a new one will get glassed in forward and then the original will be removed.

Photo B shows where new storage will go. Because of the height of the new furniture some of the storage will actually have two layers or the ability to take a horizontal divider out and have one big storage box (where the contents can bang back and forth and wear on the surfaces, hence the compartmentalized compartments)

The third half photo just shows the water tankage. Moved aft and considerably smaller than the plastic Cape Dory tank I just removed. The water tank will not be this tall. Only about two-thirds of this height will be tankage resulting in a little over 26 gallons. There will be shallow storage on top of it along with an inspection and clean-out port. While 26 gallons isn't much water this tank will be suplemented with another 20 gallons in a tank under the companion way.

There you have it. Slow but pretty sure