Tools that work & Etc.

[ebb]

Ovations for the innovations posted here for cutting out those pesky bulkheads.

STILL, imco the Fein MultiMaster is probably the most versatile renovation tool for our historic fiberglass boats. Not to say that it is as efficient or even compares to what can be accomplished with a smart airtool. And an innovator behind that tool.


The MultMaster is an excessively EXPENSIVE corded tool.
The 'accessory' blades are even more excessively OVER-PRICED.
E-Cut Universal Narrow and Wide 'bi-metal' blades - the dog-leg flush cutting ones - are about $50 for three.

Fein has no specific blade for working FRP. I've been using E-Cuts for fiberglass. The bi-metal aspect is for cutting thin metal and nails along with wood. Heat build up on the blades imco kills them. The E-Cuts are quite thin and that with eccessive heat may take the temper out of the teeth. Have been cutting thick glass that requires the tool to work hard. However the thin blades do surgical quality work for as long as they last.
Also, they probably aren't made by Lenox.


There is animated discussion on the net (type in Fein on google) about MM.Other cheaper competitors are appearing, Couldn't be too hard to come in cheaper - and 20 year old patents are running out. Craftsman and Bosch are two. If you think you want an oscillating cutting tool check with these first. The blades will not be interchangable. Aftermarket blade makers have been threatened by Fein with patent suits. These guys have disappeared. Those that still sell non-Fein blades for the MM sell at prices not much under the real gouge. And no Aftermarket E-Cuts have appeared anyway.

Guys in the remodel trade want $15 blades for $2 to $5. That is what they should be sold for by Fein. If the tool wasn't so good at straight IN CUTTING nearly everybody would have bailed for a cheaper tool by now. This tool started life as a get-in-the-corner triangle sanding tool, but there are better shorter triangle sanders now, its main claim these days is its ability to plunge cut straight in. At a wallet plunging price.
That's what it's good at on the boat. The E-Cut Universal Narrow is my favorite - even if they dull too rapidly.

Other useful blades are the brutal triangle handyman rasp and the ($45!)* smaller finger rasp for rough shaping of frp.

Fein could do no better than develop a few more blades for boatworkers.
Blades that will happily cut fiberglass all day (carbide?), cut aluminum and s.s. tube, and cut the ends off s.s.bolts.
A set of smaller less aggressive diamond rasps as flats and 1/2 rounds for detail work in corners.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
($45)* .....Bill won't stand for OBSCENITIES on this Forum.
But that right there is a real bad one!

[CapnK]

Ebb -

Several of the competitors are discussed at the toolsnob.com link I posted on the previous page.

The 'copycats' have been out long enough that there are starting to be some regular-Joe boatpeople using them. There is some discussion at this link (TSBB).

[Commander 147]

I've started using these sanding disks on my random orbital sanders and they work better than any others I've tried.

For hook and loop try these. The 80 grit 5" dia. is part # 4195A11 at this link

http://www.mcmaster.com/#4195a11/=2a65ub

For adhesive backed version try these. The 80 grit 5" dia. part number is # 4675A53 at this link

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/2624/=2a67rq

[ebb]

Thanks Kurt,
had not seen ToolSnob before. He/She is good! First reviews I've seen on "over-molded cases" which are often designed by idiots who will never use the tool. Would like to see ratings with more depth. Was the funky Fein ADD-ON vacuum pickup rated?
Cords. Fein has one of the most pliable, TAME and generous cords of any. Easy to pack back in its case.
Case. The Fein case has an amusing fantasy handle that looks like a fettucini maker. Bottom of case is rounded with feet projections which makes it PITA tippy on anything but a flat level surface. Just plain stupid. ETC.

Both aftermarket blade suppliers (Imperial, Multitool?) for the Fein don't go beyond WOOD blades. Have not seen any of the Fein rasps copied. I believe the toughest blades are called E-cut Universal which can be used to cut sheet metal. I would use this ability to compare any other oscillating blade tool.
I would hope aftermarket blades got compared as well.
Just bought a pack of three E-cut Universals from an independent hardware for $62!* That's brutal. That's nasty.
Fein can get bought out by Walt Disney for all I care.

In rating a tool for modern boat work, we'd have to include the tool's ability to work fiberglass and some forms of thicker metal like steel bolts and aluminum plate imco. This isn't likely. They would have come out with better blades by now instead of concentrating on the oddjob middleclass handyman market.

BUT it seems that so far only Fein MutiMaster is powerful enough to become a boat tool - it is not all the way there yet. I've also noticed the tool under load can get HOT. Don't mean pushing it, merely persistent use.

For anyone remodeling a boat I would first try a Harbor Freight clone with cheap blades. Sounds more nautical anyway.
* You can buy a Fine clone (Chicago brand) for $39.99!! Might even come with some blades.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
Went back for a better look: Fein does have 3 1/8" circular blades that can be used for fiberglass. They could be used to cut off tabbed bulkheads. I think the dog-leg E-cut plunge cutting blades are more flexible and precise. Didn't think to use the round blades.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
[later post, 11/12/09]
The Fein over-produced shill TV ad for their $300 (PLUS very pricey blades THEY DON"T TELL YOU ABOUT) home-owner's handyman tool has caused a spin off of vibrating copys by everyone: Craftsman, PorterCable, Bosch. Altho I haven't 'tested' any of these, they all seem to do the exact same things as the Fein, only cheaper. You still pay thru the nose for the blades, imco. None of these do any metal work.
The test for that would be cutting off the end of a bolt/machine screw. A simple request....
Fein failed miserably.
It's a disappointing buy imco. There are no metal cutting blades. As a detail sander with the triangular pads, it's not very good at detailing at all. Fein is good at straight in cutting with the 'E-cut' dog-legs. Fiberglass smokes the blades.

Not worth the price for what uit can do remodeling a glass boat. Start with the cheaper ones

[ebb]

Practical Sailor July'09 looks at and rates $100 to $200 sunglasses.
Cover photo shows a guy wearing correctives closely inspecting a pair of Harken's with a doodah scope.

This article has a good deal of general knowledge about protecting the eyes with the use of these tools. I'd recommend it for everybody to read. It is. imco, very hard to excuse some of the prices that fashionable glass get. I'm sure there is a perfect pair if you can afford it.

Despite the tech on the P.S. cover wearing corrective glasses, there is not one pair of 'fit-over' sunglasses tested. I wear glasses - and I would think many consumers do. This omission is myopic of P.S. And while not typical certainly typifies the personality of the magazine.

So I got edjucated but I got no help.


All on my own I discovered SOLAR SHIELD. Wearing them for years.

They are sunglasses that are sculpted to stand off from your face enough for your regular glasses and still keep the sun out of the eyes. Imco they are really nice looking, even stylish. Fairly comfortable considering there are double frames on your nose. They come grey and amber/copper and clear.
You must make sure you get the polarized ones.
I like the amber and find them clear enough to wear even at night in oncoming traffic.
They don't fold small.
The earpieces get very skinny in section and can break. My last pair did but then they live on the UV dash of the truck.
They have kept their natty new appearance for years despite the high heat and knocking around with other pairs on the dash.

Found some recently on the net for $18.95.
They come in two or three widths, which gives them some custom. They supposedly are available in drugstores, but I haven't noticed.
Worn them while sailing, and had them stay on without using Croakies.

Can see having these aboard like you do extra lifevests, for your guests. (Put some tape or mark on them because they might leave with them too!)

For what they are I'd rate them one to five with a

[ebb]

First, please accept an apology for seeming to high-jack this venerable thread as I seem to do others. BUT, this has to be important.

One of the worst things we renovators do to the Commander and Ariel is sand/grind the interior down to green fiberglass. Breathing this dust is dangerous to our health - THAT is an understatement. We did the interior of lit'lgull from stem to stern with a 4" Makita angle grinder. Without a vacuum attachment.
I hired a guy to do it.
And have profoundly apologized to him.

If you can smell the work you are doing through your mask you are contaminating yourself. I did a hardware store lead paint test on the paint in the Ariel and DID NOT FIND LEAD. However, even thru the canisters we wore we could smell the paint and smell sweet styrene from the ancient polyester. If there is a shaft of sunlight you can see tiny pieces of glass filling the air you are breathing.

Long after the boat was grinded, the wood shop on the estate where I am employed got a Festool system.
Festool is basically a modular set of hand power tools engineered to remove any dust from your workplace. Dust is drawn into a powerful vac THROUGH the tool. It works unbelievably well. A tool is wired to the vac which shuts off when you shut the tool down. BUT there is no way you or aye can afford the system. Or the vac.
I took the vacuum and a disk SANDER down to the boat for a little grinding on the hull. The air stayed completely clear - the vacuum was in the cockpit so the HEPA 'used' air did not recycle in the accommodation. It was to me a revelation. No evil dust and no facial appendages that never work anyway. I don't believe Festool has an anglegrider in its system. If they did you wouldn't need a DustBuddie!

My grinding days in lit'lgull are over,
but here is something I think somebody could look into. Even if you haven't torn the interior apart.
Dust collection is mandatory in every boat yard.
Whatever bottom renewal system you have, if you are fortunate enough to have your boat out in a DIY yard,
look into these two shrouds that fit over the head of your grinder. I am suggesting that a backing pad can be bolted on to an angle grinder and flat sanding disks used to turn the grinder into a sander. Have to watch gouging. It is probably safer to invest in an orbital sander with 8 hole disks and attach it to a energetic sander. Can be noisy.
http://dustlesstechnologies.com

One shroud for your angle grinder is called Dustie and clamps around the head of your grinder. It looks like the cheaper of the two.
The other one is a see-thru polycarbonate shroud with a "brush skirt" called DustBuddie. It looks more versatile, and seeing the work is a plus.
If these work at all they're probably worth every dollar.


[Just checked their prices. They each have a small and larger model, as for your 4" Makita. and a 7" model for larger grinders. The see-thru fancy one is $102!! The Dustie is $30 They say the DustBuddie will easily clamp on t o a Makita angle grinder and any number of other 4 and 5" grinders. The website shows only hoods for angle grinder style tools - no stand-up sanders.]
Here is the internet buy-site:
http://www.dustlessdepot.com

Dustless Tech also sell vacuum systems you can connect with your tool. They are in the ridiculous price range of Fein and Festool. For a little inconvenience you can hook up with a reasonable Rigid vac from HomeDepot.. We're not in the contracting business.

[For years the head maid here on the estate has used an ash vacuum (for cleaning fireplaces) made by Dustless Technologies. Never a problem.]

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Thanks for posting that link to Dustless Technologies. I had not seen their website before and I will check it out in more depth soon.

For the work I have been doing on Destiny I have been using a Bosch 6" sander with built in dust collection hooked up to my Porter Cable tool vac that has a dual filer system. The bosch sander has an aggressive mode that while it is not as fast as using a 4" grinder it creates a LOT less dust and I put up with the slower progress because of it. In addition I wear a dust mask and protective clothing. With the health hazards in doing this work I certainly would not want to make a career of it.

[Frenna]

On the topic of dustless vacuums, a tip. Until just a few years ago, shop-vac branded vacuums were heinously noisy clunky things, but I picked up one of the new yellow plastic ones several years ago and it is a dramatic improvement. No need for earplugs to use it.

More importantly, they sell a variety of vacuum cleaner style bags that can go in it, and the yellow colored one (I think that is the one for fine dust/drywall dust etc) really does work amazingly well. I used to use a porter cable dust vac to deal with drywall sanding dust because you could kind of clean out the pleated filter, but the shop-vac with the fine dust bags beats it hands down. I can sand drywall dust off of floors for some time before they bog down. Much to my surprise. And it holds A LOT. Powerfuly, quiet, cheap, readily available. (Ace hardware). I use it for architectural stuff hooked up to my sanders and life is much better. It would work fine with a festool I imagine, which helps control the cost of that option. I also use it for quick connection to table saw/chop saw when I do not have my full wood working dust system on site.

Even better, you can get extra hose and connect it to the exhaust side and get it out of the project or out of the way.

As for the cylindrical pleated filters that would replace the useless foam liner which is used in place of a bag, it is great as a backup for the bag, but they clog to easily and are hard to clean for the only line of defense. I put one on as a backup inside the fine dust bag.

Also handy for sucking water out of bilge, basement, bathroom, etc. (without the bag of course)

I got a pretty big one, I think it was not much more than a 100 bucks. I imagine festool would charge that much for an extension cord.

[Ariel 109]

My two cents.

I don't miss my Fein detail sander at all. I think it caused me more work than it saved. But that being said I'm in the pneumatic sander camp. Lighter weight, don't heat up, way more control, last forever and do a much better job. Fein makes a pneumatic version of their sander which will allow you to instantly control the speed of the action, that's really important to me on a sander. I'm sure you could run it off a 20 gal compressor. Summer humidity can mess up pneumatics which is a drawback. In my shop I run a refrigerated air dryer. But if you keep your sanders well oiled they should be alright.



Ben

[ebb]

Was born with a metal can Shop Vac. Hated it. Hated it for YEARS. Nothing stayed together.
Pulled on the hose the plug would pull out of the wall. Try vacuuming with hose extensions and everything would pull out of everything else. Use just the hose and it would drop out of the vac.

Worked recently with a giant Rigid for years on the boat. It ate a lot of glass. Kept sucking until you had to empty the enormous bucket. Most of the stuff was impacted in the pleated filter. Couldn't replace the filter because a new one cost too much - so it got a lot banging and whacking to clean it. When I did, the vac acted new for awhile.
I ran a hose from the exhaust side out of the boat. Didn't phase it.
But it was too big any more and had to go.

Now I have a smaller 'cannister' type Rigid, the type with two cart wheels that you pull around with the hose. It does not have enough power to have hose attached to the exhaust side. Can't lock the wheels so the damn thing moves all the time like grease.
It was fairly cheap but it really is a PITA.
And it's loud. The on/off switch works OK in one direction but not the other. Halfass.


Looking forward
I really wanted a vac that would do well with an oscillating 5" 8hole sander for seasonal bottom work - but also anything else around the boat requiring dustless - which is absolutely everything around the boat. I have used the Festool right angle 5" oscillating sander with the matched vac. ( I don't like working with palm or vertical sanders.)
That's about $1200 right there, before the special hook and loop deutsch disks you have to buy to fit the import platen..

So far here in this thread the Porter Cable 5"RO gets good marks.
I don't know if I can just jump back to a ShopVac I guess the PC Vac is axed by a poster here....... I'm at a loss for a good small vac.

So what is a good combo?
Need a well designed, light, easy to hold oscillator with an inexpensive source for 60grit.
Would be great if common 5" 8-hole papers could be used.
Need a small, powerful, QUIET, easy to maintain, light weight vac (washable cloth filters rather than paper) maybe wetvac feature as well. One that likes the sander it is attached to.

When I get hauled for a DIY bottom job I want to at least appear to know what I'm doing -
and I don't want to switch on a loud vac and an annoying whining sander. Do I want to attract that kind of attention? And want to avoid draping the boat with blue plastic to keep dust contained. Ideas?
Seriously.

[Commander 147]

ebb

You say "I guess the PC Vac is axed". Does that mean you don't want to consider the Porter Cable vac for some reason? I like mine and it works well with my Bosch sander.

[ebb]

Hey Jerry, I thought I read here a post that didn't give it 5 stars.

And I just went back 3 pages to scan it all (this guy ebb sure talks too much!!!)
Didn't find it.

Anyway, I'll look into the PorterCable vac - which I don't know.

[Commander227]

I have had many years of great service from my Fein dust collector/vacuum. It uses a washable pre filter and a disposable HEPA filter. It also has a socket to plug in your electric sander, table saw, etc. so the vac turns on and off with your tool. It has logged hundreds of hours often running 8 hours a day and still works like the day I opened the box. It is also pretty quiet.
Mike

[Commander227]

9-55-13 Fein Turbo II Vac features an automatic on-off switch
Plug your sander into the panel mounted outlet. When you turn your sander on, the vac starts automatically. When you shut your sander off, the vac continues to run for 3 seconds to clean the hose.

The Fein Turbo II is designed for heavy, continuous, industrial use. The Turbo II can handle power tools with inputs of 40 to 2000 watts (.3 to 19 amps). The powerful two-stage motor offers bypass cooling. This means that if the hose or filter become blocked, air will still cool the motor.

Producing a mere 57.8 dB(A) noise level at 3.5 feet, the Fein Turbo II is one of the quietest vacs available on the market today.

Depending on your requirements and the nature of materials you are working with, available filtering capabilities include:

standard 5 micron
optional 1 micron
optional .3 micron HEPA filters
The vac can be used wet or dry. There is a large selection of available accessories.

Includes
16' hose (1 1/4"dia.)
Adapter (hose to tool)
5 micron Filter Cloth
Model: 9-55-13
Auto Start: Yes
Watts: 1050
Static water lift: 90 inches
Air flow: 116 cfm
Net Weight: 28.6 lbs
Power Cord Length: 16 ft.
Hose length: 16 ft.
Capacity dry: 9 gallons
Capacity wet: 6.8 gallons
Dimensions: 24 7/8" * 16 1/2"

[Stephan]

I was wondering if any of you uses 110V power tools through an inverter off their 12V system. I'm living on a can, and would like to use my little trim router and a Fein Multimaster knockoff from Harbor Freight without having to find a dock sometimes. The starting current on those babies is likely way higher than their continuous draw, so I know I have to get some serious device.

Also, the Admiral would LOVE to be able to run a hair dryer (even if only for 5 minutes on 'low'). I got three batteries so I think I ought to be able to handle that on the supply side. Any advice?