Exterior Wood Finishes

[bill@ariel231]

that's the best use of those long bolts thru the coaming blocks that i have found. denting by head while crawling in the lockers seems to be the other useful purpose.

[commanderpete]

That's a neat arrangement. I'd call it folk art.

Sometimes if I have smaller pieces, with screwholes in them, I'll prop them up on a bed of nails.

There is some advantage to working on horizontal surfaces. You can lay the finish on thick and heavy and it can't help but flow out nicely, as long as you can keep it from dripping around the underside.

C147--the Rapidcoat/clear is probably not the best choice to use over epoxy. They're a bit thin, and varnish would probably give you more build.

I wouldn't discount some of the newer Cetols either, although I haven't seen them in person. It seems you can get away with less coats using Cetol.

So many choices. Reminds me of a funny post I read here once. Somebody was asking whether they should buy one product or another. Everybody chimed in with their favorite brand. He comes back and says something like

"Gee, thanks guys, but I was hoping for less options, not more"

[Commander 147]

this is 3 coats of Cetol natural teak on mahogany. It was brushed on about 1-1/2 years ago and has been laying in my shop ever since. You can probably tell it looks lots better than the older versions with the redish stain they have... problem is it does not protect like the older versions either.

I really wished there was a water based finish that worked well in the marine enviroment like the water based polyurethane I put on the worktop this sample is laying on. The worktop is a large U shape with 5 ft legs and a 14ft bottom of the U and in a single day I sprayed 8 coats of the water based poly on it. By the time I got to the far end the end I started on was dry to the touch and in another 20 to 30 minutes I could sand it.

[commanderpete]

Looks good to me.

You don't often hear about people spraying on a wood finish. Not sure why.

With the amount of time you save, who cares if you need to buy an extra quart?

[ebb]

C'pete,
Take a look at Ben's, Ariel 109, #100 post in this thread.
The first blue line ,,,,hydroplane..... gives the WHY on spraying clearcoat!

(There's the How, Where, When, Why, and the oft forgot NO WAY!)

[Lucky Dawg]

And I am lucky that my wife has a sewing business (she does custom window treatments) and the equipment to make me all my canvas work. The very first project I want her to make is a cover that will protect all of the brightwork and go from just forward of the mast to just past the aft end of the cockpit.

Curious if you ever produced this canvas - I would be intrigued to see a picture.

[Commander 147]

Kyle

Not yet, because I'm spending all of the boat dollars on the refit. But I will be sure to post a picture when she does. She is actually thinking of expanding her business into boat canvas work.

[Lucky Dawg]

I know where she could find some guinea pigs

[Commander 147]

Do you have a specific project in mind? If so send me a private message and I'll get her involved.

[Rico]

- Oink, Oink!!!

Or 'groin, groin' as a pig from Guinea would say (in French)...

[Lucky Dawg]

Stripped my hatch boards. Campanionway brightwork to follow. Boy is a heat gun and a triangle scraper like magic! Had I known, stripping my coamings would have been less arduous! You have to be careful not to scorch the wood, but besides that, it is easy fleasy.

Looking at stain as the lowermost of my hatch boards is significantly lighter than the rest. I'm guessing it was a replacement. Water has collected on the bottom edge and there was a little dry rot to repair - may have happened before in the last 50 years.

With an eye for old Chris Craft style mahogany boats, I always wondered how they get that rich red color out of mahogany. Tempted to use these techniques:

(http://www.vintageraceboatshop.com/Stain-Varnish.htm)

...on my campanionway and hatch boards. I searched and found mentions of filler stain on the first page of this thread - wish I had run across it before finishing my coamings.

YEOWZA!

[ebb]

And a great site, great fotos of a traditional varnish job... by seven curmudgeons
....with a fine modern varnish. That ChrisCraft is a jewel-box, and keeping up with
it is going to take a lot of varnish love and a lot of Clear Gloss Epifanes.*

From the photos, it's difficult to see the difference between the three choices of
filler stain. Color intensity seems to change. Would choose the brightest red under
multiple coats of UV varnish. Have to buy into the Interlux/Petit system... Have
to admit the result is fantastic. Can't imagine keeping up with it on a boat that
lives outdoors!!!
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Already thinking of painting out LittleGull's mahogany bullwerkian toerails. For me,
yearly varnishes are endless hours in the curse of prep.... for a last lick of gloss.

LeTonkinois Varnish (American Rope & Tar LLC) is the way to go for cruising.
Because it's simpler, imco. It's an all vegetable oil varnish with no volatile solvents,
no thinning required. Doesn't crack or flake. This is a permanent varnish. You
should be able to recoat over the original for as long as you have the boat.....
go to FAQ http://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/. >'LeTonkinois Varnish'
After you read this, you may be asking: why Epifanes? ...well, maybe drys faster.

The original version of this French rendition of a centuries-old Chinese varnish
is now history. The original 'Classic' version has been superseded by Vernis #1.
later EDIT: Original TONK is still available

Have used Epifanes and LeTonkinois Classic & #1, one on top of the other,
( 'flatten' by 220 sanding between every coat. Tooth is always better.)
They all brush on equally well. All look just as deep after 10 coats. To me.

But in the boat's bosun locker I'll carry a can of LeTonk, (transferred into a thick
plastic jar) some s.carbide waterproof paper, scotchbrite pads, T-shirt rags/filters,
foam and chip brushes, small foam roller. No volatile varnish-specific solvents.

Look up WoodenBoatForum LeTonkinois Update
forum.woodenboat.com/ LeTonkinois Update {best I can do...Forum dates
from 2010} ...read with open mind and be aware of the post dates.

{The volatile solvent to use for (shhhh thinning) and expensive brush cleaning**
is naptha. Generic mineral spirits and paint thinners these days come in a number
of formulas, don't trust them. Why not learn to varnish without thinning??}

Users of LeTonk report problems with added coats beading up...for no reason.
Watch your rags: they may have fabric softener, soap or oil on them - don't use
tack cloths, use a water dampened T-shirt. Wear disposable gloves to keep yer
chickin-lickin fingers off the work. Don't use white or gray stearate/latex coated
sandpapers, they leave wax or weird plastic behind. So far, I trust resin bonded
3M Gold Frecut 216U Al oxide, and 3M Wetordry extra fine 320*** - rather than
Klingspor, or foreign papers that may leave residue.
DO NOT TRUST ANY_ STEARATE SANDPAPER - even upgraded
waterborne coatings Block sand lightly on flats - use a new, stiff, pre-washed
(dish liquid, multi rinse), maroon (lighter colors = smaller grit) scotch-brite pad
on curves and rounds.... lightly: cut, do not burnish. 220 grit,
nothing finer than 320. LeTonk sez: 'stretch it out with long strokes'.
Brush it on better: roll it on thin. Tip with long strokes using Jen foam brushes.

LeTonk likes over 60degrees. Some say warm the can, but imco the work and
the varnish should be the same temp. Gelomat, the flattening agent, which you
add in quantity to LeTonk for a satin finish is formulated with naptha (nobody's
perfect.) LeTonk is made with tung, linseed, and other vegetable oils, no petro's.
It still is, imco, refreshingly low tech. Most users have no problem applying it.
LeTonkinois is a French varnish. Let's forget about that. Read all you can find
on this varnish -- built on a centuries old Vietnamese formula.... Rope&Tar and
Brit sites... it's really the most amazing varnish you or I will ever experience.
One.last thing: you can use Letonk UNDERWATER. Try that with Epifaness!

Cleaning brushes: There is a soap, "The Master's Brush Cleaner & Preserver."
It is said to work on any brush, any paint, any condition.
**Favorite LeTonkinois varnish brush is cleaned by squeezing, wiping it dry of
varnish in rags or paper, then soaking in vegie oil, then swashing the oil away
using Ivory Soap & water.

***Sandpaper: All papers seem to have something added to help keep the grit
from 'corning'. Including 216U. Certain conditions, methods, humidity, heat, have
led workers away from stearate coatings. Manufacturers are cagey about telling
us what 'dri-lube' is on the grit. Sandblaster MSDS suggests it may be something
to do with titanium dioxide. Not a dust you'd want in yer lungs. 3M Sandblaster
synthetic Cubalon abrasive paper is touted to be "ideal for sanding between
coats of paint and varnish". That's pretty specific! I'll check this out right away.....
3M must be responding to the gripes. Be great to have a trustworthy sandpaper.
{EDIT, later post: See Post #125}

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LeTonkinois adds nothing to give its varnish UV protection. The formula evidently
provides a natural resistance to UV damage for the film and the covered material.
Corporate varnishes add UV additives to their mix. Some diffuse light and heat
and reflect some UV away. Another will harden the outermost mil-surface to keep
its reflective gloss. Another prevents organic ingredients from oxidizing and
getting moldy, thereby stabilizing layers - probably plenty more chem-tweeks...

A comparison test by a responsible third party would help settle many claims.
One that includes long term exposure, examination of wood surfaces and fading.
AND settle, once & for all, the argument whether epoxy sealer is really necessary!
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*Epifanes Clear Gloss: 25-50% naptha. / 2.5% xylene. / 2.5% 2-butanone oxime.
/ 2.5% mixture of branched & linear C7-C9 alkyl 3-(3-(2H-benzotriazol-2-yl-5-
(1, 1-dimethyl-ethyl)-4-hydroxyphenyl propionates. / 2.5% 4-tert-butyphenol.
/ 2.5% cobalt bis (2-ethylhexanoate). Which means there is between 37.5%
and 62.5% remaining phenolic resins and non-synthetic wood or seed oils......
Not including user app volatiles, etc.

.....Just saying. Don't mean to rub it in.

[Lucky Dawg]

I guess my "ah-ha" was on the filler stain underneath. My "blonde" mahogany coamings look great, but natural or not, I like the sumptuous color of that rubbed Chris Craft red mahogany stained color in the photo above.
3 years on, my coamings still look great with Epifanes. The trim pieces at the top of the cockpit benches are worn off where you'd expect wear. My hatch track brightwork is in need of a recoat not sure what might be different for those pieces to be looking thinner and in need of refinishing. I just yanked off and stripped my whole companionway to go with the previously mentioned hatch boards - I didn't refinish any of those in 2011 with everything else. Those parts are all stripped, bleached, and ready for final sanding and finishing.
I'd be curious to test your Le Tonkinois stuff Ebb.

[ebb]

Never stained outdoor wood, so this is from reading....and FOR discussion.

The stain those guys used is v e r r r y red. Interesting how it mellowed out with
multi-coats of UV varnish. Think part of the intensity of what we see in the finish is
that hot color coming through. J.E.Moser waterborne aniline dye stains (no filler)
available from Woodworkers Supply 'have a good rep for lasting'. There are no
transparent stains guaranteed not to fade. Moser's specific dyes for mahogany are
all antiqueing stains, but their dark red is fairly bright, and could be redded-up
even more with specific color powders to come close to the ChrisCraft red mahogany.
Waterclear fillers are here. (AquaCoat is one - don't know if it is OK out of
doors, would ask their tech. But under 10 coats of UV varnish, what can happen?)

Suppose, after final sanding prep, water stain is washed on, then the clear filler is
pressed in with a green plastic spat, then lightly leveled with a stiff plastic 'credit-
card'. When smooth, we want to seal the wood. LeTonk would have us apply a
coat or three of un-thinned.* But Epifanes - not sure here - its quantity of solvents
may attack the filler (but hopefully not, imco, the waterborne stain). Uncertain
as to the Epifanes schedule, but a 'sanding sealer' is likely necessary, before varnish.

Still think that sealing wood with epoxy is the best way to protect the wood from
moisture invasion. May do this under LeTonk, even tho they say it's not necessary.
When delving into LeTonk history, the varnish seems to go over literally anything,
anywhere - in or out of the water.

It is very possible to fill the grain using almost water clear epoxy. The problem is
that sanding might go thru the stain. Will create a blotchy look if that happens.
(Taking epoxy off, back to wood, is hardly an option. If it's part of loving varnish,
ie to take it back to wood after the varnish gets tired, you can't seal with epoxy.)
So more built-up coats of epoxy to get an absolutely smooth filled grain surface
will be necessary. Laminating epoxy is not a self-flattening coating. That's why
I've never stained first. Usually, sealing is a thinned coat, then one regular coat.
The wood then stands up for itself. Never been a cheerful varnisher.

Of course, layers of UV varnish supposedly protect the wood surface underneath,
but I'm sure sun's rays will fade the wood where it is more exposed to the light.
So if a boat is parked 'one way' mostly in the marina, the mostly will show up.
The job will two tone after awhile, shadowed surfaces stay dark. Baked will fade.
Don't believe there is a stain that stands up to exposure, and that's why its not
used, normally, on boats. Everything fades in the sun, including pigmented paint!

*When I think of it, laying on the first coat(s) UNTHINNED, goes against every
thing I've learnt about how-to varnish. Le Tonkinois literature says the coating
penetrates just fine. They recommend no thinning, EVER.
In a way this old time varnish is revolutionary. As to having to wood down
sometime in the future (because you didn't maintain the finish), no epoxy sealer
(which LeTonk doesn't recommend anyway) is the easy, simple, uncomplicated,
best thing to do for the life of the mahogany! N'est-ce pas?
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Kyle, Varnishing is an art form. Have to have knack for it. And a forgiving eye.
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"A man is rich in proportion to the things he can afford to let alone." Thoreau

[sinbin]

I had a painting business for 36 years. For exterior bare wood it was "stain, seal, and varnish", using oil base products, generally following the instructions on the can. For fillers, we used oil putty which we tinted to match, after the sealer coat and before the finish. You can buy colored putty at OSH. We also used colored caulk at the joints and seams as needed. Sherwin Williams has a sanding sealer in quarts. By the time I got "Sinbin", it's wood finish had been aborted, so I resorted to a tinted varnish glaze over the old polyurethane finish which looks good from across the harbor. I have had best results with a coat of Man O'War Semi Gloss Spar Varnish every six months, after a scratch sanding with 120 grit. Best to stay away from polyurethane, as it's almost impossible to sand. I have never "wooded" my teak in 20 years. The last owner sanded away the bungs. Hope this saves you some time and money.