RUDDER SHOE DISCUSSIONS

[Bill]

Here is the shoe you need Mag bronze and he even puts your name on it!


FRED POMERANZ
1168 QUEETS DR.
FOX ISLAND, WA 98333

[Jim Rester]

ebb & Bill

Thanks for the terriffic information. You both put a lot of effort into this board and I appreciate it.

On C-80 the rudder shaft looks fine. But the shoe is almost totally gone.

Obviously the shaft is more noble. I wonder what alloy of Bronze the original shaft is?

I am working on a solution to this common problem. What alloy would be most like it but slightly less noble?

How often would you say the average person hauls their boat to do the bottom?

[Bill]

Contacted Fred for an update. He has one shoe machined and ready for shipping. Price is $300 including S&H. This price is higher than the earlier shoes due to increasing copper prices. The cost of the next shoe is likely to be higher still as the materials for this one were purchased over a year ago.

With commidity prices still on the rise, waiting is probably not a good plan.

[Hull376]

I just had the bottom done on 376, and what do you know? The Zinc I put on the rudder shoe two years ago was gone. I also had a zinc attached by wire to the tiller head fitting when at the dock, but not much gone from it. I have one of Frank's beautiful new rudder shoes in inventory ready to be installed when needed.

[commanderpete]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-R...3A1%7C72%3A317

Brand New Cast Bronze replacement rudder shoe to fit Pearson Ariel, Commander. Vanguard and Alberg 35. These have also been used to retrofit Pearson Triton, but a new rudder stock and keel modifications were required. MAY also fit/be adaptable to the Pearson Coaster but am not sure.

This is a raw silicon bronze casting and requires finish machining to be installed on a boat.

Copy of authentic Pearson drawing with machining dimensions and specs is included.

[ebb]

C'pete, great find. good starting bid price.

If it's correct to the specs then it is a real goody. Pg171 A/C Manual.

Added expense is getting the ruddershaft hole (3/4"X3/4"D) milled.
Has to be accurate.


Side pins can conceivably be drilled while mounted to the boat, but really easier and more accurate to do on the drill press with holding jig. And a breeze to add the chamfers for peening into.

How do we tell one bronze from another?
Is there some provenance with this casting?


Finishing the bronze is more a matter of fit than removing the casting marks.
Sandcast surface is not rough and makes a good surface for paint. Not that S.B. needs paint.

[Tony G]

That is an unreasonably good price! The windlass has my attention too! Now if I could just figure out how to service the rudder and shoe while she's still on the trailer... That was a major oversight in trailer design on my part.

P.s. good to see you back in action CPete. Missed your input around here.

[commanderpete]

The shoe sold for $146. Must have been one that Fred built

Thanks Tony. I didn't supervise the haulout of my boat closely enough last Winter. This is what happens when they start to lift the boat out of the water, by the rudder

Lucky I had a spare rudder

[Tim D.]

They did that at a yard.

[CapnK]

Wound up being $172 w/shipping, near enough. Anticipating the worst - I'm not *positive* that I need it, but wanted it on-hand just in case I find 'bad stuff' down there when I pull the boat. Bronze rod can be ordered fairly easily, not so a shoe. And with the price climbing above 3BoatBux over three years ago, figured it was a good deal not to be passed up...

That said - I don't see why a shoe couldn't be made of composites - heck, shoe and rudder combined - no more worry about electrolysis ever. Spent some time looking at McMaster and such for materials. Found that you can fairly easily procure 1" OD solid carbon fiber rod somewhat cheaper than a good bronze alloy, though only in 4' lengths (so far - more searching might find a source for longer rod stock). Hollow tube stock can be found in longer sections, but I don't know how much faith I could put into that, considering stresses and whatnot... I imagine that abrasion could be an issue, would probably be *the* issue. But could also be accounted for in designing and constructing. Some well placed sacrificial Delrin might do the trick. A shoe might be made from sheet material glued up and then milled to a proper rudder-post-base accepting shape that could be attached to the after part of the keel...

Food for thought, anyway.

Thanks for the heads up on that auction, C'Pete! I had good eBay fu yesterday - spent all my birthday money. Also scored a set of 8:1 Harken mainsheet blocks for just over a $100 - retail would be $450+! I got them to use during rigging jobs, should be able to hoist myself aloft easily now, without needing to procure the help of a deckhand winch grinder. And though you don't need that kind of purchase on an Ariel, I could still use them in that way, or as a handy billy.

Hate that the yard did that to your rudder. Did they pick up replacement/repair costs?

[ebb]

Kurt, that's interestin....
All that is really required at the bottom of a rudder shaft is a decent BEARING - and even that could be some spaceage material. Super acetal. And it could be designed to be easily replaceble.
Don't know if the obvious alternate materials, kevlar and carbonfiber plus a twopart plastic are the optimum underwater materials. Not yet, but something will come along.
Our shoe is a nice tidy little bronze burrito that disappears as an appendage. Its plastic/fiber replacement would be noticeable and might just as well be a bit larger and longer and bolt on directly to the bottom of the keel without being dapped in.. Have seen boats that instead of a shoe have a super gudgeon just up from the bottom for the rudder end. That moves the hinge up from the more vulnerable end of the keel position. And a design like that actually might work for the Ariel/Commanders.
Siliconbronze is an ideal material. Don't think that any epoxy composite can equal the stuff.

I agree with your rudder upgrade too. Occured to me once that the rudder doesn't care if it has a single or twopart bronze rod to swing on. Our rudder has a bearing at the very bottom of the shaft and at the top. (And perhaps at the intermediate strap gudgeon.)
The inbetween can be square sectioned, I-beamed, or any shape - OR doesn't even need to be there. That 1" bronze rod is,what, 20#? We only need it's roundness and toughness at the bottom and the top. It can conceivable be any other material inbetween. Or can just be whatever the blade material is.
A composite rudder that didn't depend on a huge 6 foot long, one inch diameter pin would be a great design challenge. As to the rudder having a hollow rod, I noticed in Alberg's original drawings in the Manual a 2" shaft - which ofcourse would be hollow.
Or if on the back end of a wooden boat would be two inches of white oak or teak. And the attachment method gudgeons and pintles. With the blade material inbetween!


Our original rudder and shoe are imco holdovers from pre-fiberglass history, from the wooden boat days.
The bronze shoe especially seems to belong on the end of a keelpost timber, not barely holding on to a plastic boat that really isn't capable, the way it was molded, to really hold the fitting. I mean the shoe is a wood boat fitting on a plastic keel.
I think a modern design upgrade of both is a great idea.

[carl291]

I bought one of the rudders shoes advertised on EBAY, it arrived today. It is certainly a very hefty piece when compared to the original. I'll post some pictures tomorrow of both shoes , new and old, side by side so you can compare.
The seller said his friend had several of these cast several years ago and just recently dug them out to sell. I don't know how many he has, but I mentioned posting here if he had more to sell.
Later

PS I will add I feel like this is nearly twice the weight of the original and will positively need to be milled (ground) down to use, it's just TOO hefty a piece.
I really don't need it as my original is in good shape. If a member does, contact me, The price is cost plus zero.

[George Boggs]

To Carl291 and others: I am new to the thread. I have an Alberg 35 that needs a new rudder shoe after suffering the same fate as commander pete at haul out this fall. Can you all advise me as where I can get one now. Should I contact Fred in Washington who appears to have made some a few years ago, and if so, does anyone have his email address? Does anyone else have a source that I can contact? It is not clear that the shoe described in this thread would fit an Alberg 35, but at least one person thought it would work on several of the Alberg designed models. Thanks in advance for any advice? George

[carl291]

Mr. Boggs, Welcome, If I recall the gentleman who had these cast had an A-35 and had these cast from that original shoe. This wasn't cast as an Ariel direct replacement. Hence the hefty size in the previous photos. This piece is for sale if your interested, I could take some measurements this weekend if I should get home and post here.

[George Boggs]

Bill: If you get this post, I was interested in the finished rudder shoe you posted back in 2005 with a nice picture. I am not sure how to use this forum since I am a new user. I do not know how to reply directly to you or simply put up a new post, so here it goes.

Is it still available in finished form? Would it fit an Alberg 35? Where can I get it? If Fred Pomeranz, do you have his email address? Carl291 may have an unfinished one to sell, and I am waiting to hear more from him. Thanks for any assistance you can provide. George