Ariel #215...."Revival"...again

[c_amos]

Frank,

Just 2 points to consider. I know Kurt is considering this for Katie Marie also, so you might pick his brain on it too.

In considering this mod sitting aboard Katie Marie with a mocked up box where it would go (small area of the cockpit well forward). I personally sit pretty far forward unless the boat is heeling. Sitting forward with my feet in the well allows me to take maximum advantage of the dodger in foul weather, as well as putting me farther from the stern.

I appreciate Carl's drawing such a stout bridge deck, but it does become something of an obstacle when going below. It limits how far aft the aft bow of the dodger can be, due to the necessity of climbing up to go over it. It seems to me that a cockpit mod like Atom has would be somewhat tougher to navigate aboard an Ariel... especially with less spry crew (no similarity to anyone reading this thread other then myself intended).

I would suggest Kurt's method of mocking it up and stepping over it for a while before you go for it. Might wanna mock up a dodger bow to through in the mix also.

[Tim D.]

It limits how far aft the aft bow of the dodger can be, due to the necessity of climbing up to go over it.

This was the conclusion I came to in thinking about a larger bridgedeck. The hard dodger on #331 requires stepping over to get into the companionway. It would mean crawling into the cabin with a larger deck. Thankfully neither I or the first mate are 6' .

[frank durant]

Good points. I wonder if the forward 1/3 of the cockpit sole could be built up to flow aft with the drains placed there? Thinking this would make the 'drain out the transom' idea more feasible ?

[Tim D.]

Good points. I wonder if the forward 1/3 of the cockpit sole could be built up to flow aft with the drains placed there? Thinking this would make the 'drain out the transom' idea more feasible ?

Wouldn't that make you feel kinda tipsy all the time.......

Never mind, I forgot who I was talking to

[frank durant]

Nah...would just keep me in practice I'm liking the 'no holes' below waterline concept. Not sure if its attainable, but the thought is good. I know Ebb has the other drains as well but sure like this idea.

[frank durant]

Ebb...I'm confused. (easily done) In the picture, do forward drains run aft in the black pipe or do aft drains run down and are glassed in .....or both?

[Tim D.]

Frank, are those done with elbows embedded into the laz floor?

[frank durant]

Those are Ebb's pictures....???

[Tim D.]

Now I see, I caught you in between posts

[c_amos]

Those are Ebb's pictures....???

Yes, those are Ebbs, Man does he ever do nice work....

I think the idea of a slight build up of the cockpit floor forward might work out nicely. I can't say I ever was afraid of the cockpit volume issue, but the maximum amount of water that the cockpit ever held on Faith was the ~3" to get to the lip of the well.

I did compromise, and replaced the .5" well drain with a 1.5" drain so it could empty faster (with a plug, that can be installed with the well plug).


I thought I had a more 'finished' picture of this, but you get the idea;


If I were crossing the pond I would want the plug in the well and to have some kind of arrangement like what Capt. Ebb has.

[Tim D.]

Good idea just improving the well drain, like you said once the water gets to that point it go into the well. As I am in the middle of reworking the well for the propane locker, I want to make any changes now.

[ebb]

shouldn't get into this, just too many words.
Does look like A338 pics.
Important point imco is that the cockpit is stabilized with longitudinal bulkhds.
Would not have built up the bugle shapes of glass up TOP of those tubes unless the c'pit is stabilized.
That's another kettle of fish.


If you look at the rudder tube in Ariels coming thru the c'pit deck you'll see Pearson used some goop there because they had a thru-deck that had to be flexible. They weren't successful imco and where the rudder tube pierces the c'pit deck is another leak point in the Pearson short list.

You'll note that the original c'pit thru-deck drains went to hoses, which take flex. The only way, without remodeling anything, is to increase the size of the existing drains to get more volume out. I feel more volume gets out if you aren't pushing against deep water - which is what the originals do.

The Ed Ekers beaucoup volume water removal process through the OB motor-well lets out free water without much constriction. Might just be the best way to save yer butt in green water.


Just throwing out a couple alternatives:
1) Put in extreme oversize pipes out the side of the hull from the aft end of the c'pit. They might be protected with powerboat style flapper valves - ones that allow water out but not back in. The tubes need not be at c'pit deck level since their function is to get rid of volume water fast. You have to put up with unsightly holes in the side of the boat well above the boot-stripe.

2) The same large tubes could be run through the lazarette from the corners of the c'pit in the same fashion. That is they would be at a convenient height and in a convenient configuration (curved, for instance) to exit out the transom where such holes are more acceptable.

Somebody might seriously consider using 2 6" PVC pipes, which would give you more than 50 square inches of open area, which is comparable to the OB motorwell.

Advantage is that an open pipe system like this - done well - would NOT sink the boat - there are no tubes or outlets under water. With oversize piping, of course you won't have seacocks.


Somewhere the math exists on just how long it takes water to exit thru certain sized openings.
The first volume of water to think about is
how much weight and gallons there are in a full cockpit well.
approx. 5' X 2' X 1.5' = 15 cu ft X 64# = 960#... in the well alone.
Then, if you are in conditions where you've taken one green one over the stern....are you about to take another worst case?
Big drains will look pretty good...then!

[frank durant]

Thanks Ebb. I put your pics up to ask how it worked (post 36) Now...where do the black pipes go? In the end, I simply hope to have no...or few holes below the waterline and a quick draining cockpit.Biggest problem I see is that 'as built' the floor drains forward.

[Bill]

The Ed Ekers beaucoup volume water removal process through the OB motor-well lets out free water without much constriction. Might just be the best way to save yer butt in green water.

This was the cockpit drain method used by Zoltan when he sailed from LA to Greece. No cockpit draining problems reported by UHURU when she sailed to Australia.

Careful not to follow Ebb in overbuilding your yacht . .

[ebb]

In the ebb's gallery pages check out post #306, middle photo.
There you see the four exit holes under the counter. The pair furthest back are from the original front cockpit drains. The c'pit naturally drains forward. A "T" fitting is attached under the enlarged drainhole and single lengths of 2.25"D epoxy pipe go along close under the cockpit the full length to the holes. In theory the long pipe drains fall slightly toward aft.

The two holes you see in the copper bottom are the straight-thru's from the aft corners of the c'pit - but positioned in a bit toward the center to miss the forward drain pipes.

I'm only guessing, but imco the horizontal pipes are too close to the waterline.
It's possible that water can enter the c'pit when closehauled. Guessing.
The direct aft drains might be gurglers and also ship water.


IF I were to do it over I would put oversize hard pipe drains in from the original position to their original exits under the waterline (only in a stabilized cockpit.) I might rigidize the setup by glassing in full length stub blkhds next to the pipes to support and protect them. No seacocks. The hard glassed-in pipes with bell-shaped unions to the hull would take much less room than the obligatory seacocks and hose. Would not run horizontal scupper pipes under the cockpit. Next time!


I would have some version of oversize overflow pipes which would exit the transom.
They could possibly go out sidewise (into the locker area) from the c'pit near the aft corner but in the locker turn immediately through the blkhd and sweep out the back.
As a OB cruiser it's probable that a fairing lid will be in place in the bottom of the OB well while under sail.
Having large diameter 'overflow' drains isn't any more radical than an OB well in the lazarette. And if somebody came up with a good design it would be a great safety feature.

At some point in refurbishing an OB Ariel the 'gas-can deck' in the lazarette should be removed and rebuilt. If never done before it's probably full of water and gasoline. A338's was. It might be reconfigured with large scupper piping as part of the rebuilt deck. Just an idea.

I'm guessing that inboard Ariels have a similar deck inside the laz.


Ed Ekers is the most experienced sailor in the West Coast Fleet. In his hair-wetting story "Getting Wet" he shows how ridiculously easy it is to get boarded over the stern with a whole lot of ocean. He has the presence of mind to know exactly what to do. [grab his sunglasses]
That's the 'essence of luck'. Pathfinder's OB-well made a great scupper to void all that water quick. Ariels and Commanders without the OB well really have to figger a way to get the volume and weight of water out ASAP. Just suppose your boat got boarded a second time with the cockpit still nearly full?