Lastly, this one looks like the cadillac of stowable ladders "The Foldaway", from Mystic Stainless. Nifty looking system that can attach to a rail mounted genoa track? Starting with a 24" single section ladder for $386.
Lastly, this one looks like the cadillac of stowable ladders "The Foldaway", from Mystic Stainless. Nifty looking system that can attach to a rail mounted genoa track? Starting with a 24" single section ladder for $386.
Mike
Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)
imco any ladder we consider has to be seen from the water with a fully clothed non athletic person desperately grasping for a hand-hold and trying to think how to climb out.
If I was lucky enough to get both hands on it, the next thing is getting a leg up onto a rung. Imagine you do, and let's say it is your right leg, you get the foot partially on a rung and start hauling yourself up. As you do you are straightening that leg in an effort to gain height. Your other leg is trying to find something solid too - but it isn't there! What you are doing is also pushing IN against the ladder with your leg with tremendous force. This sideways load has to be considered when looking at a fold-down ladder. The more rungs in the water the easier it will be to climb UP.
As you pull your body up, you've got your bulky lifevest (hopefully if it's an inflatable it's deployed), probably a coat or foul-weather gear, gallons of water on your chest and in your lap. How many extra pounds at that most memorable moment in your life are you trying to suck out of the water?
I've never seen a ladder strong enough for what I imagine is a worst case survival event. Or even a ho-hum event. The ladder with the whole world rolling has to be rock solid. It can't be an articulated one because when you lift a leg into the thing and push up you don't want to end up under the boat. You will loose your purchase, and have to depend mostly on arm strength. Suppose your hand got between the ladder and the boat?
Lifting a leg encumbered with clothing will be incredibly difficult and quickly tiresome. You might have kicked your boots off and your feet are numb. Two rungs below the water will be really hard to get a foot up into. Three to my mind is minimum.
I guess we'll go with the toughest looking ladder we can find anyway, and hope it will work as promised.
Isn't there a law that says, the better the ladder the more likely you are never going to need it?
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google EXTEND YOUR STEP the BOARDING LADDER EXTENSION
www.clmarine.com466.html
check out the wood treds over the foot severing ladder rungs. And the prosthetic add-on.
http://www.portalladder.com/navy/index.asp
Cast aluminum very compact folding ladder - each step folds and is 6" wide, effectively holding only one foot in place as you climb. Military thinking but it could work as a survival tool. Bet it's expensive!
'Xtend and Climb Telescoping Ladder'
These are ingenious true telescoping aluminum tube ladders. A marinized (not yet to my knowledge) version would get my attention. The ones I've seen are fairly light very rigid when extended, and a shorter model for the transom or stern quarter would be even lighter. Easy to imagine pulling DOWN from the water on a trailing lanyard and getting 6' of REAL ladder to climb on!
Think that boarding ladders are a survival issue. Someone has pointed out that if the boat is moving while you are trying to board , a stern mounted ladder might be difficult to use, and suggested a ladder off the stern quarter. Where of course the mounting is more difficult. If reinforced stanchions were used, they might create the stiffness and leverage needed.
Someone, maybe the Pardey's, have permanently mounted s.s. handholds on the stern quarters. Don't think they are tube - they may be solid bent rod like extra long U-boltsw Can see something like that on the Ariel about where the center of the cockpit is, two, one above the other on the topsides.
Haven't seen this: Handholds on the topsides would be good if you can use them to grab the toerail. Rock climbers are always sticking legs out to find a ledge. Suppose you did that on your Ariel. Stragtically placed handhold rails and another one for a foot to find, off to the side and a little lower, to pry yourself sideways out of the drink. 'We don't need no stinkun ladders!' imco as always.
Last edited by ebb; 11-21-2007 at 04:11 PM.
Article in Good Old Boat this month on this subject. Folding ladder with rope ladder attached - breakaway twine to launch the well-below waterline 911 boarding system.
A couple pix and Richard Smith's idea below.
Kyle
C-65 Lucky Dawg
Amazing to see one of those again.
Made one out of 5/8s nylon and used it to work on the top of a gaffer mast. Maybe a lot of people did - and everyone found out it was a mother to use for any extended work up the mast. You cannot work on one leg for long. And when up there and strapped in and so forth you can't trade legs.
Mine's out in the garage somewhere and now years later I'd never think it will be used on the Ariel. But maybe it could be cannibalized for the folding ladder pull-down. Good idea!!! I would, instead of using H.G.Smith's looped and eyed top, tie off the rope ladder to the sides of the metal one. (The rope ladder's top is the middle of the line you are using to make the ladder.) Obviously the guy in the picture used the top off the one he made!
I remember there was an enormous amount of rope to pull around the step parts in making up the 30 footer. I made mine with bigger diameter rope but as an exact copy of the illustration in his famous book.
In the text he says you could make the ladder wider with more coils per step but they would sag and be uncomfortable for both feet on a step.
BUT, you know me, I'm thinking put in a stiffener in the form, say, carbon fiber tube(s) or two or three white oak dowels of the length required COULD be laid in as the coiling on each step begins. Be interesting to try. Bigger diameter coils would be easier on the feet. None to my knowledge has improved on Herv's wonderful invention. If you did introduce a step stiffener into the design, it won't collect into a nice tidy pile like the original! That was the best thing about it.
I trusted line in the old days. I hauled the Smith ladder up with the halyard and then tied the feet off to opposite rails as tight as I could to keep the thing from twisting and bowing out from the mast. Body weight loosened it it considerably. But I did use it, and no doubt it contributed to the mental and podiatary problems I now enjoy.
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imco it would be OK for the use illustrated. You have to use your instep when climbing this thing, and to my uncalloused that is a bit much.
Last edited by ebb; 11-27-2007 at 08:19 AM.
This boarding ladder setup would work really nice for Bill of A-231 and cruiser Craig with their split pushpits...
Mike
Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)
Mike, it's hard to make out that ladder there. Looks a little like the Mystic Stainless Foldaway - which looks really substantial going to the diagram on their site.
Still a look though - have to see the actual ladder to be sure.
One little detail either way could be the clincher, as it so often is when making a decision to buy something.
The Foldaway mounts to a track.
That's clever, spreads the attachment points, allows repositioning of the ladder, and is strong. The taffrail on the Ariel is curved two ways and could present a problem, maybe not. The Mystic Foldaway diagram obviously shows the ladder off the side of a boat.
The tube sides have slides of what looks like plastic tubing that immobilize the hinges and stiffens the deployed ladder.
Again, that may be a good idea as it gives the hinges a little movement. The hinge design looks like they have some 3-dimensional flex too. They may turn on a stainless toggle and pin device, it's hard to make out exactly, but if they do something like that that would insure that they last. Mystic may have something there, wish there was a close up of those babies.
Imagine trying to get the ladder folded again once you're on deck. The lower section slides will be at water level. H m m m m ....
The standoffs may be a problem to keep positioned. But the ladder may be able to stand the strain if one or both fold under load at the wrong time. It looks like a great product.
Mystic has an optional handrail kit that would allow you to haul yourself up by not relying entirely on the pushpit stanchions. One end of the handle-loops mount on the same track. Looks like they 'fold' also independently of the ladder - they may be TOO articulated for anything but conservative boarding.
The ladder is obviously meant for an open sternrail....BUT
It might be a good thing to have a STRONG full round rail, if you can see yourself stepping over the rail while climbing. The "Foldaway" might work on any Ariel transom. Preferably with something above deck level to grab on to.
It is made of 1" tube - great! And is 15" wide.
Makes it easier to CRAWL up the device, because that's what we doing....
Looks like the rungs have a flattened top. Probably too narrow for my arch.
Has a curved bottom step, that isn't going to jab you when you are looking for it with your feet.
Foldaway folds into a neat very compact unit.
Now the thing is, of course, can be deployed in a confusing emergency situation? Important. Can you get to it from the water?
If it's a good ladder, it'll get used. And will become familiar.
I would not mount this off the side unless the stanchions on both sides were triangularly braced inboard. If I had the ladder mounted on the starboard side, I'd be sure to trip off the port.
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There are stainless tube telescoping ladders. I'm curious about their longevity stowed in their compact state. Windline makes them. Windline makes some substantial products - so they are worth looking at. The longest is a three stepper.
PlasTEAK Inc has ladders worth looking at also - including telescoping ones that are meant for powerboats but may be adaptable. Including an all stainless 4 stepper - $145! They have 5 and 6 step rope ladders with Plas-teak treads that have a grab hole in the center so you don't have to crush fingers. $60 and $70. Might be good to have one of these all plastic roll-ups aboard for insurance. Depending on how they attach the line to the treads, they should survive being stowed away.
Feed back from the gallery would be nice.
Last edited by ebb; 12-31-2007 at 01:02 PM.
My Garelick aluminum ladder broke, after about only three years. This is the second one I had that failed. Piece of junk
I'm thinking of getting this stainless 5 step folding ladder.
http://divendog.com/Product.aspx?item=82&u=0
Available here
http://www.boatdepot.com/productdeta...-3-2-12-D-F-RM
Cheaper here, the part number is the same, but the picture and specs don't match
http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=196314F
Might be the same one West Marine is selling
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...31&classNum=32
In case someone is looking for a ladder.
Since we're also talking about self-rescue, you can use a loop of line alongside the boat to get back aboard.
The line wants to swing under the boat when you step on it, but you just kick your leg back away from the boat and boost yourself aboard.
Might be able to rig something up with a jib sheet in an emergency
Though I can no longer sail solo, I still am oncerned with someone getting back on board in the open water. I carry a gunwale mounted aluminum boarding ladder which I can use for intentional swimming (not falling overboard. I also carry a web ladder in a bag mounted to the life lines (the lifelines run from the bow plate to theend of the gunwale at the stern. The bag containing the web boarding ladder falls about where the winch mount is. I try to get it as far astern as possible to keep the ladder from swinging under the boat as little as possible. Neither the web ladder or the swim ladder has any value if the boat is under way. The unanswered trick is how do I control the direction of the boat/speed if overboard -particularly since I use an autohelm) I don't know. I do relay on a handheld portable VHF to call for a maydayand rely on a tether to keep me connected to the boat. I also carry a block and tackle that can be connected by a crew member between the D ring on my pdf and a horseshoe ring on the boom with alocking cam cleat to haul me out of the water without the use of a ladder, if necessary. The horseshoe ring also serces to hold one end of my preventer. I guess the preventer could also be used as a hoisting mechanism.
I also carried on my pfd about 50 ft of llight line that line that I could have used to hold me to the boat as I released one end of my tether and slid back to the dingy. I could have easily started to climb aboard the dingy even though that endeavor would have sunk it. A dingy full of water is too much for the Ariel to carry as a load. The Ariel would have likely stopped and mostlikely have then come upwind luffing as well. That done, Once on top of the dinghy,I could have inched forward along the dingy gunwales and boarded the Ariel. Not elegant but doable in my better years. The bottom line in any case is that a man overboard is a mayday sitution (forget your pride in favor of saving life and call for help). Fortunately, in my better years, I never experienced an involuntarily MOB so the routine was only tested under benign sea conditions. I did try the web ladder in rough conditions and getting up again was tough and questionable whether a weaker/tired/cold individual could succeed.
I hope that you all won't mind if I reopen this thread for some information. Sirocco needs a boarding ladder and after reading and researching I'm beginning to think of ordering one from Mystic Stainless. I'm never certain of the integrity of mounting from the stern/transom and it seems like a headache for an old chub like myself to come aboard through an encircling push pit so I've been considering Mystic's foldup that fits on a genoa track that would mount along the beam in the vicinity of the cockpit.
Has anyone ever done that and what are your thoughts on it? Thanks, jon
Last edited by ebb; 06-20-2011 at 12:03 AM.
The Mystic Stainless Boarding Ladder is the RollsRoyce of side mount folding ladders.
They are meant to be used with reinforced lifeline stanchions.
A 6 footer (we need at least two rungs in the water to get a leg up) is $788,
no amenities included like rung liners and connectors.
The Foldaway may also have a weight issue and a stowage problem if you want to take it off.
But that imco defeats its real use which is MOB rescue. Should always be instantly available.
There is a Markus LifeNet that can be pulled from its cover with a tether by a m o b.
Have not researched this one. Not a very informative site for me.
It's a good thought to have a rope net with all kinds of hand holds and many spaces to shoove in a foot for climbing back on board. They have one that seems too small and a four foot long one that looks like the right idea to me
BUT it's marketed for rescue and as a injury litter. Has floats in neon red and probably has a stiff pricetag.
I think that for us we just want to get reattached to the boat.
Anybody who has seen WWII navy footage remembers men scrambling up and down huge 'cargo' nets drapped on the sides of ships. I know I always thought hell I could do THAT.
SO maybe this is the time for a Hervey Garrett Smith inspired rope net or nylon webbing that could be bundled up neatly, pulled open easily from the water - and from the deck - and used casually as needed and specifically as a safety for a surprised, sputtering, upset senior.
It's a different concept to have a bunch of material to grab, get an arm in, get a leg wrapped around.
Than a hoity-toity 316 folding ladder that'll disappear from your boat when you're not looking.
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Way later edit:
CommanderPete at post 37 gives us the only source I've seen where a longer (5 and 6 step) TELESCOPING ladder can be found. Dive N Dog is an interesting site. Haven't spent time there to form an opinion. They sell a host of ladder stuff. I'm guessing it comes from the orient. A long and wide telescoper with triple wall tube ('Prestige' model, which I would go for) will be pretty heavy. The vendor is in Florida, so shipping and maybe having to return the purchase is a real consideration. The stainless used MUST be 316 for all parts.
Anybody looking into DiveNDog????
Last edited by ebb; 07-17-2011 at 08:50 AM.
Your comment on the Mystic is right....it is a Cadillac or a Rolls, depending on how deep you wanna dig for dough but the tag end of your comment is hilarious and oh, so true. I've ordered a ladder....I can't recall the name right now, that telescopes and mounts by fitting into a pair of brackets that are mounted inboard from the rubrail and on the decking. Should handle a sputtering senior or my XO, which ever of us falls overboard first. Pictures will follow when I return from the Gulf.
We gotta see how the telescoper turned out (or is it 'pulled down'?) on yor boat.
And your thoughts on how the design works
Ebb, It's so hot in Oklahoma I haven't been out, but I did meet with the Rapid Response Team at my marina on Saturday to discuss placement of the ladder mounts and a new set of jib tracks and blocks that I picked up last week. The ladder looks heavy duty and sturdy but that's an educated best guess and the RRT says that everything should be installed by midweek. Based upon prior experience with the RRT though I anticipate it all coming together in 2-3 weeks, but they might surprise me. I will certainly post some pictures and give a report when the water stops boiling and I can try her out. I sure am enjoying those hatch boards that you sent. Is there anything at all that I can do to return the favor?
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