Let alone the visible lines in the water - with fresh bottom paint, the lines of her hull hanging... expectantly... from the travelift... I couldn't agree more. Standing there live, it kind of took my breath away.
Not sure who belongs to #274 (second pic below), but this is one of my favorites (What a shot!!) from my enormous "commanderpix" desktop-slideshow file - I just like to look at 'em!
Last edited by Lucky Dawg; 07-18-2007 at 08:49 PM.
Kyle
C-65 Lucky Dawg
Holy Rolly,
Look how lightly that Dawg sit in the straps!
Look at that shot of her SAILING!
There really is something extraordinary about that hull in the water!
Gorgeous boat, gorgeous shot.
HOWEVER, There is the bow. And LOOK at Dawg - ain't that bow....PERFECT? PERFECT.
However, I'm compleatly objective about sterns.
But for me a good quick indicator of any boat and its designer is the transom.
Here you have it or you don't. Put an Ariel and Commander next to a Triton and a Cape Dory.
There really is NO COMPARISON. The Ariel transom has golden proportion to it. The quarters are fuller than the Triton. And the symetric curves of the quarters, for lack of vocabulary, sexy. The Triton's ends lean and sinuey on the quarters. The C.D.'s is plain and stodgy. The point is, though: the Ariel transom, without compare, is a near perfect conception. Perhaps a little more tumblehome....no! really doesn't need anything to make it more pleasing than it exists!
Last edited by ebb; 07-18-2007 at 08:00 AM.
Lucky Dawg can't take credit for the bow pic - that's hull #274 "Das Boot" out of Chicago - don't know who she belongs to, but I want to borrow your photographer.Originally Posted by ebb
Kyle
C-65 Lucky Dawg
The formula for theoretical hull speed (ths) is:
ths = SQRT(LWL) x 1.34
Therefore as the boat heels over, the LWL increases and therefore ths increses as well.
And just for the record, I am not a math major (far from it), but I found a great pearson website that had that, and other formulas, on it. Here it is.
Jack
Jack...now, heel the boat over and increase the length of the waterline(and speed) in the 4+knot gulf stream and she'll really fly
Frank... you are lucky, I have only ever had to race against the stream.
Jack
Pa-shaw
Thanks Jack for the lead to those Pearson numbers.
The number of times Bill Shaw's name is on that list shows us that Alberg's designs were the transitional datum for boats changing from wood to frp. The Ariel could have been designed for wood but while the topsides might remain the same (except for that amazing eliptical cabin front), the underbody would have had to have much less sculpting than what we have in the Ariel. Alberg designed a beautyful hybrid shape for the in-the-water part of the Ariel that may not have been surpassed by anyone since.
But Alberg's easy driven slack bilge designs were over taken by the Shaw wider beam, harder bilge, fin keel, spade rudder designs. The engineers and the techs stepped in to make lighter less wetted surface structures suited to glass and oweing little to past wood boats except that their impetus obviously came from rowing dinghies.
If you could make the keel and rudder more pliable and bendable you'd maybe get more speed, like whale shark and dolphin tails. I feel that the hard planes of modern sail dinghys actually limit speed by creating eddies. Of course we now have new generation sleds that are not really boats, but water-surface speed machines. Surfboats.
I wouldn't know, but has anyone read of a Bill Shaw sailboat exceeding its W/L rating? Well, surfing a swell, maybe.
I don't know how it goes, but engineered shapes are linear shapes to me, boxes with curves. Now if you took an ideal marine speed shape like a great white and translated that to a hull, you might have something. Might have something that relates to what Alberg came up with. Alberg's form is the SOFTEST hard form imaginable. Know what I mean? I bet that a bendy rudder/tail on an Ariel would make them go even faster. A little bendy, OK?
A good comparison of Alberg and Shaw is the Pearson Ariel and the Pearson 26. Alberg was the transitional designer - he put Pearson in the frp boat business. Shaw designed marketable leisure products for them. Not knocking it, there just is no accounting for taste.
Alberg never forgot that a boat should look like a boat.
There is a story of a transAtlantic race in which an Alberg 35 in a raging storm ended up taking all its sails off. While other boats freaked and struggled and broke things, the crew on the Alberg 35 went below and played cards while the boat lay a-hull.
You've seen this picture. A mighty storm, the whole world's coming loose, it's all gone to hell... but there's a gull bobbing UP and DOWN in the waves, waiting, maybe a bent feather, no problem.
Is the word Sea-kindly?
Last edited by ebb; 09-19-2007 at 03:32 PM.
Ebb, I agree with you... in fact I think a few modern designers agree with you as well. I just went to the Newport boat show and a couple of the "new" designs look very Alberg-ish. Soft gradual curves, few to no hard edges. The biggest difference is their use of a fin keel and spade rudder.
I asked a few of the dealers about the benefits of their "new" design. I followed up their long winded answers by asking them if they felt their boat were very similar to classic Alberg designs. All I got were confused looks and a few stammers.
Jack
Das Boot is still alive and well - I'm glad to hear you like that picture of her last year. When we get waves in Chicago, she pitches excitedly, spraying crew plentiful at times. It's part of the fun.
You lucky people in the Bay area - your season never ends. We have to start worrying about winter storage here...
Ebb...that "storm" in the story you mentioned..."There is a story of a transAtlantic race in which an Alberg 35 in a raging storm ended up taking all its sails off. While other boats freaked and struggled and broke things, the crew on the Alberg 35 went below and played cards while the boat lay a-hull."....was the same storm that killed several sailors and sank several boats...in the infamous 'fastnet' race !! They simply waited it out and sailed on...unaware of what happened to others.
Ebb...ya gotta love/respect the guy! Alberg was a stubborn man of great pride and morals. This taken off an Alberg site speaking on design......... ."Carl's own assessment agrees:
"Contrasted to the modern IOR boats where you have six gorillas sitting on the weather rail with their feet hanging outside trying to keep the boat upright, my boats are strictly family-cruising boats. In all my designs I go for comfortable accomodations and a boat you can sail upright without scaring the life out of your family or friends. I gave them a good long keel, plenty of displacement and beam, and a fair amount of sail area so they can move."
In 1979, while those modern boats were capsizing and sinking, an Alberg 35 on it's way to England comfortably lay a-hull.
"It was really blowing and though they shortened sails and did everything else they could in order to keep going, they eventually took everything off, went below, battened down the hatches and just ate, drank and played cards. When it had blown over they hoisted sail and continued to England, where they were told they had just sailed through the same gale that had taken 16 lives in the Fastnet race. They had ridden out the storm by just sitting in the cabin while everyone else was capsizing."
"There are still some designers around who whare my ideas about glass boat design. Everyone else is trying to conform to the new rules. My boats are more designed to follow the waves and stay relatively dry and stable."
Carl passed away on August 31, 1986 at his home in Marblehead Massachusetts. His 56 designs resulted in over 10,000 boats.
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Is this Alberg designs Carl is talking about? I mean, I dearly love them, including my Commander, but I would not consider them 'beamy'. We don't sport a 'full keel' either, since the whole forefoot is cut away and the rudder post comes forward a long way, too. And last not least, our boats are designed to heel quickly in even moderate weather - scaring my friends more than most other boats and making the mixing of drinks below a balancing act!
Before you guys think I'm a traitor, please let me repeat how much I like the design for elegance and seaworthiness. Those advantages bring disadvantages, though, which makes me, for example, consider even a large Alberg 35 or Alberg 37 not perfect for long-time cruising...
Yup, that's Alberg's quote regarding his fiberglass boat designs (moderate beam & full keel with cutaway forefoot). Remember this was in the context of the 1979 Fastnet disaster where early to mid generation IOR boats with poor righting moments and were not up to the weather encountered on the race..23 of the 306 yachts taking part were sunk or disabled due to high winds and "mountainous seas". Something like 15 fatalities occured. This event lead to a rethinking of the stability requirements and safety gear required or offshore racing. I've sailed and broached in later generation IOR boats that learned from this race and some of the larger capedorys that share our hullform. Both types can be fairly stable and capable of recovering on their own if the designer had stability in mind from the beginning. That said, there is weather out there that will crush any sailboat.
There are just a couple boats I'd trade up to: CapeDory 33, Hinckley Pilot lead the full keel list. First Generation Swan 37 and if money were no object, the new NYYC Club Swan 42 lead the fin keel list.
Last edited by bill@ariel231; 09-24-2007 at 11:46 AM.
Yeah Bill,
I read John Rousmaniere's book "Fastnet Force 10" about this- a great read.
You quote "moderate beam" which sounds more like it than Frank's quote "plenty ** beam". I guess the boats in 1979 were so extreme that Carl's designs were comparatively beamy, and even a half WL length keel is certainly different from a short, deep fin.
I'm regularly racing on an Alberg 30, and we DO need the rail meat to stop from heeling excessively. I understand that eventually she stiffens and has tremendous safety by guaranteeing to right herself if capsized easier than beamier, lighter boats. However, to go on long trips with a constant heel of 20-25 degrees gets old fast, at least for me! It's great fun to dip the rail, granted, but it interferes with food and drink prep!
I myself was dead set on buying a larger Alberg 35 or 37 eventually for long distance cruising, but after reading a lot of posts on Sailnet I developed some doubts. There's even complaining about the motion comfort of those boats being rather poor on those forums. Jeff H is one of the most articulate of the critics there.
I understand the Alberg 30 is more tender than other Alberg models. from what i've read, the boat was designed for lead ballast but the builder chose iron for cost. I had a lot of time on a Cape Dory 33 and loved to to death. the only thing i wished it had was a better traveller system. The other boat I've spent time racing is an old Frers 40. Both boats tend to drive with the rail down in 25+ knots of wind. The Cape Dory was the quieter of the two driving into a sea. The Frers and most other canoe body boats i've driven tend to pound going to windward in a sea. Looks like we get to choose between sea kindliness (with a predictable and constant heel) vs. pounding and big shock loads. either way the mixed drinks will get spilled.
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