My thought which is echoed by others here and elsewhere is that the lead casting allowed water inside and over the years during freeze-thaw cycles water that entered the ballast exploited a weak spot in the casting pushing it out.
From what I have been told by others, the casting Pearson did or had done for lead ballast was not perfect. If there was a void either from not bringing the entire mass up to melting point, or inconsistant cooling, it would make sense there could be cracks where water could pentrate the ballast. What is known is that the area was wet from my recent reclaimation of the bilge. I witnessed water trickling from the void between the keel and ballast to the aft keel void so there was certainly the right conditions to have water surround the ballast.
I too thought something must be going on with the other side initially, but when I tap and closely observe it, it seems to be fine. I really think it is water that was in the ballast that pushed out a section not something on the other side or there would be evidence of that. I have completed the chiseling so it is now level with the surrounding ballast. My plan is to drill into the ballast to see if any water drains or to see different color shavings which would indicate something other than lead being in the casting.
As I have said from the begining of my bilge project. I am going to try to seal the two voids from one another. If I do a good glass job, which I will, water won't enter from the outside. I am also going to grind of the old glass surrounding the aft part of the lead ballest visible when looking into the forward part of the aft keel void. I will glass it over with epoxy after prepping it, then build it up with thickened epoxy to make it as fair as I can. This should eliminate the water migration which will hopefully eliminate any water getting to the lead ballast.
There was mention in a previous post about water getting into the void between the lead and hull through the space beneath the sole of the v-berth. Does anyone remember that post or does anyone know how water could enter through from that area?
I do plan on removing the rudder shoe after recent revelations to rebed it so that it does not leak at all. Therefore eliminating the major highways water has been known to enter these wonderful vessels.
Last point: I love my boat and I am thoroughly enjoying this process believe it or not.
I don't know about what other ariel owners have found but on A-231, there is a triangular section of glass at the forward edge of the ballast that was a source of water into the keel (directly below the vee-berth deck). In A-231's case, I was able to feel this section out with a dental mirror looking forward from the forward most bilge access plate. When I cut into the floor boards to repair the hull in that area (and drop in a teak grate), I found this forward most barrier to the ballast was composed of a couple layers of 6 Oz cloth and 1 inch of fractured resin. Lots of cracks in that surface allowed any water from the chain locker to find its way into the keel.
Bill, I would very much like to see that photo you mention without the teak grate. I am making it my mission to have a boat that doesn't leak or have highways water can relocate to and from voids through.
Was the water dripping from the anchor locker to that point and then to the ballast cavity? Can water that ends up in the space below the sole make it to the real bilge aft of there or does it pool up and hang out? This is the first time I've seen that space, thanks for posting that photo.
BTW- I removed the rudder shoe tonight and it is in great shape. There was a small amount of water dripping out of the holes the pins were in though. I'm going to let the area dry for a while then overdrill the holes, fill with epoxy. Redrill the correct sized holes then rebed with an obnoxioius amount of 5200. Fun Fun!
as built, A-231 had a small pool for water collect forward of the ballast to a depth of 1 inch or so before cascading aft to the bilge. My extensive use of a garden hose below decks during construction and cleaning was one of the contributing factors to water reaching the bilge. One other source for a small contribution was the former outboard well (since removed on A-231) and some cracks in the cockpit locker drain system, plenty of cracks in the keel and false keel area (all since ground out and re-glassed).
You are on track with the removal of the rudder shoe. you may also want to do the same with the rudder strap (two bolts). This was another water entry point for me....
They don't call water the universal solvent for nuthin'...
I removed the rudder shoe without any problems. The shoe is in great shape with no cracks or corrosion. The repair to this area will be straightforward and will be similar to what others have done (grind, coat with epoxy, fair, 5200, etc.)
Once the shoe is back on, is it a good idea to encapsulate it with glass and epoxy?
Is a zinc worth the effort if there has been no corrosion thus far?
This stuff was thick and nasty, but it peeled off easily. It was especially thick at the aft end of the shoe.
Should the keel be extended some with epoxy so that I can avoid having to use that much caulking in the back? It seems building it up aft with epoxy would provide more structure for the shoe to hold on to, especially considering its location to the shaft which is an area that would experience the most torque.
Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 04-04-2007 at 01:30 PM.
we'll see how the voting from the other members works out..
for what it's worth, A-231's rudder shoe is bedded in epoxy (filling the whole of the shoe). I haven't seen a need to encapsulate the shoe.
I haven't installed a Zinc on the shoe, neither have I seen any ill effect from not having one. (the casting would turn pink in spots due to de-zincification)
"A-231's rudder shoe is bedded in epoxy (filling the whole of the shoe)."
Bill,
I'm assuming you used the epoxy as the adhesive that seals and holds the shoe in place. Did you coat the aft section of the keel with epoxy then set the shoe before the epoxy cured?
Did your method seal the area so that no water migrates into the bilge, if so I may be sold in which method to use?
I was thinking about setting the shoe in 5200 after coating the area with epoxy and waiting until the epoxy fully cured. I think that I am going to leave the shoe exposed as well. It's bronze so it should do its thing and protect itself. I'll be able to inspect it as well which is a very attractive feature to leaving it exposed.
Tim
Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 04-04-2007 at 06:00 PM.
question -- "Did you coat the aft section of the keel with epoxy then set the shoe before the epoxy cured?"
yes, I filled the shoe with thickened epoxy and used a jack to hold it in position.
The stub on your keel looks good in the photos (At least no cracks are visible around the holes). either method (bedding in wet epoxy or 5200 will work) the 5200 is much easier to remove if you ever need to drop the rudder for repairs.
were I to do it again, I'd use 5200...
Last edited by bill@ariel231; 04-04-2007 at 08:08 PM.
As I was looking in the bilge tonight I noticed some white powder near a few small holes in the laminate coating the bilge over the lead ballast. This area happens to be right above the area of the keel that I grinded last weekend. If the dust from grinding can make it up through these small holes, then water is certainly able to travel the other way. In a perfect world the the entire bilge will be covered with a coat of glass saturated in epoxy resin. The problem as we all know is limited access which makes prep work a nightmare. Pearson certainly threw these things together like they were in a hurry.
This Picture was taken through the middle bilge access panel. You can see the powder and if you look toward the bottom of the picture you can see a few small holes.
Here is the same shot only zoomed in a little. You can clearly see the holes in this shot.
I removed all of the peeling fiberglass laminate from the rudder today. The mahogany appears to be in very good condition. I observed no rot it appears to be structurally solid. The upper and lower posts also appear to be in very good condition. I did not observe the corrosion I have seen mentioned by others.
I'm assuming these boats came off the assembly line with exposed mahogany rudders with maybe just a coat of paint on them. I am considering leaving it exposed like it is with the exception of a coat of bottom paint. Have others found this works, or have you tried other things such as encapsulating with epoxy and glass. The encapsulation thing seems to be a no-win battle as water always wins. It will also increase the rudder's weight making it more dense which creates an annoyance to whomever is at the tiller.
Some pictures:
The laminate came off in sheets this large indicating that it was not holding very well.
Some close-ups of the posts.
Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 04-06-2007 at 06:48 PM.
Have to say, that's an amazing find, that rudder, under all that fairing compound - or whatever it is. You did a beautiful job getting the crud off!
And what a reward to find a brand new four decades old rudder still there!
What varnish are you going to use?
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