The album of Ariel #422

[CapnK]

Ebb - Now I have even more of your posts to think about. I'll leave you with this non-scary, no scifi GIMP drawing of the slideout dinette, while I go think about your ideas...

Mike - It's not athwartships, but I haven't ruled that one out yet.

[mbd]

Kurt, your GIMPiness is the coolest! One of these long cold winter evenings I'm going to do some GIMPing of my own. What a great way to preview your mods.

I think you're on to something with the pull-out idea. Kind of taking a pull-out chart table to the next step.

After reading you and ole Ebb go at it though, I must confess that I'm a little relieved that the stock setup mostly works for my clan. (Wife and 2 kids) Each of the kiddos have picked out their "beds". Hopefully, next summer we'll do our first overnighter. But this is your thread...

A couple of thoughts:
What if you had the cabin steps to the right instead of the left, so it would be a straight shot to the v-berth when the pullouts were deployed - or move the pull outs and storage to port...

I like the open feel down below as well, but it seems by removing bulkhead walls, you're also removing valuable surface area which could be used for cabinet/shelf/storage space. Fine, even desirable for us weekender/daysailors, but you long term guys might need every little crevice and surface you can eek out.

Lastly, I love dinettes, but Ebb has got me thinking for your purposes (long range cruisers) a pilot berth that could be converted to a double at anchor definitely has its merits.

[ebb]

Kurt.
Do I see two sinks in yer gimp - a round and rectangle?

Mike,
I'm all for the original layout. As conceived it's great for weekending and a fabulous boat for getting the young out sailing. It's a mystery why, nearing the other end, some want to leave their cozy apartments and TVs to go wander away into the jaws of the dragon. Stir crazy to star crazy!

The original bulkhead is a post and beam with two side struts providing triangulation to support the beam and spread the load of the mast.

It turns out, after spending some late nite on the net, that the arch and beam is as old and venerable as the post and beam. Some owners have to rebuild the compression bulkhead because of rot and shrinkage. I now believe that the beam in conjunction with an arch is the strongest structure you can have supporting the mast. It could be a much lighter structure than what I have ended up with in my rebuild. That bulkhead under the mast has one purpose and that is to support the deck stepped mast. If it can be done better, then it probably should. And if it opens up the accomodation, that's way cool imco.

For instance, the beam could be an I-beam or truss (instead of a heavy white oak lam as 338 has now) The remaining pieces of ply bulkhead (spandrels) could be 1/2" or 3/8". The arch would still anchor at the V-berth bulkhead, with the load taken up by the hull well tabbed to the remaining bulkhead. The plywood under the deck would remain for locker sides (and equally strange thru deck upper shroudplates.) The forward stateroom could now be partitioned with any material soft or hard. Any furniture would be self supporting and could be designed to ignore the arch/beam. I'll leave it alone now.

[mbd]

Ebb, I believe Capt'n K. indicated the circle was for the stove. Another nice idea, BTW, the vent the heat.

How about a simple support post for the mast ala the Commanders? Do away with the bulkhead entirely and have the entrance to the v-berth to one side and a bulkhead to the other?

On another note: imagine Steve's Sirocco mini-settee as a pull out convertable athwartship bunk. Seems like it'd be cozy. Without the wet locker there, it could be a double easily - perhaps not long enought for the likes of Ebb, however. Still room aft for galley, pilot berth, and stowage. Man, did Steve do a nice job on his boat!

[CapnK]

Fellas -

This is great - thanks for the ideas and input, there is much to ponder and it is all helping me as I decide on where to go.

Wanted to post this one quick-like. This is where I am heading with the area under the bridgedeck. Lots of people poo-poo the Ariel hanging locker, and though I use it just fine, I understand why - it is small. Still, I see a need for a place to hang sodden, dripping foulies. Having to take them thru the cabin to hang up doesn't seem like much of a good idea. Another thing which has niggled at me has been that big area under the cockpit floor. It begs for stowage, but is not a good spot when one is trying to avoid stern squatting - anything stowed there must be lightweight. Access to the area is a little difficult, also - pulling out the steps, there is still a pretty narrow area for access. So I came up with this compromise. Removing the sink and cabinetry in the under-bridgedeck area will make access to the under-cockpit area much better, and having some hooks or a bar mounted up under the bridgedeck, next to the collapsible ladder would make for a good foulie hanging/draining spot (it's right over the bilge sump, too).

Second pic is "ladder in the up position" - I thought maybe the first pic might be confusing visually.

[ebb]

Kurt,
As Bill might say, why not put a nice little Beta back there!

[CapnK]

Well, as much as I liked my last diesel (a Universal), I gotta say "No Way!". I like the outboard and well setup even more, it has many advantages. 1) Cheaper engine (and parts!). 2) The engine is more serviceable. 3) The prop can be pulled clear of the water for a clean sailing underbody. 4) No thru-hulls! 5) No grounding system/engine corrosion. 6) Runs much quieter with less vibration. 7) More stowage room belowdecks. 8) The 6hp 4 stroke o/b uses less fuel (the diesel was a 12hp - I'd get about 3 hours runtime/gallon with it, vs 4 hrs/gallon for this outboard).

The only drawback is that the o/b isn't nearly as powerful. Powering into 25/30 knots of wind is approaching the limits of what is possible with my o/b. I found that out heading to my hurricane hole for Ophelia this year. I left almost too late! It was difficult to keep her head to wind out in the middle of the Bay where there was a good fetch.

Though the o/b weight is more in the stern, it is substantially lighter than a diesel - I figure about 4-5 times lighter - so I call that issue a wash.

If I ever got a diesel, though, it would be a Beta.

[Robert Lemasters]

I agree that an outboard has advantages, my Nissan 6 hp 4 stroke is very good on fuel, I did however change the prop pitch per Mike Goodwin, who has the same engine on his Ariel. One advantage that I like, is the fact that you can steer with an outboard motor should something happen to the rudder. The four stroke dosn't make very much noise, even going full speed, I like that.

[commanderpete]

Its not GIMP technology, but this is how I was picturing Kurt's dinette and bunk

[mbd]

Just to keep you guys thinking, I ran across these the other night while wandering the "For Sale" sites. A couple of interesting ideas. The Bristol 26 shows a longer bulkhead with the dinette setup. The Invicta 26 has a raised vberth so you could make room for the feet on the settees. This setup could free up the aft of the cabin for galley space and storage. If I recall, the Wing 25 had this foot cubby setup on one side too.

[CapnK]

OK, you made me think.

About how much height there is at the forward part of the Vberth. There is planty of room, and some reason, to put a shallow (but wide) self-draining foredeck locker there. Maybe 6" deep inside. It would stiffen the foredeck, and make for a convienent - and perhaps safer/quicker - place to stow anchor rodes. Could even have a smaller partition integral for headsail-related gear/tools. Or, there's room there to glass in a 6" block of foam, if your quest was ffor a buoyancy-neutral vessel (like Jim Baldwins Triton Atom may be).

Ebb is not allowed to do that because he has a nice large hatch there, with a nice locker area below. I bet he feels relieved at that.

[mbd]

Naw, think really BIG "E"! Figure out a way to add an Anchor Locker! Now that would be really cool!

[CapnK]

This will interest Ebb and maybe TonyG, as we've discussed this idea...

Cutting the main bulkhead away to open up the interior.

Well, there is a Bristol 27 on eBay right now where the owner has done that, to a degree. Here's one pic, there are a few more (but no really good ones) in the ad - link follows...

eBay B27

Mike - still thinking about that anchor locker.

[CapnK]

...and here is the latest GIMP revision. Interior sans steps and sink. IIRC, Bill@231's post the other day which commented on placement of the sink off-centerline was grist for thought. I'd been thinking to put the sink off to starboard. Rolling over other possibilties in my mind right now. The large starboard stowage/galley setup I cobbled together as a prototype onboard has been functioning well, not at all intrusive or claustrophobic. Last night I removed the last vestiges of the icebox - the bottom, which had been serving as a shelf there in the corner. Ebb, I climbed into that area and thought about your pilot berth...

This was right before I went onboard a transient's Hinckley Bermuda 40 to help them connect to the marina network. Yowza. 3rd Hinckley I've been on, though I didn't get to sail on this one - what great boats. What HUGE price tags.

[ebb]

That GIMP, what a great fun tool!
I finding it difficult to figure out what's actual or what's virtual.
But since it's a drawing, comments are acceptable, right?
Anyway, the q'berth looks more comfortable now. If it isn't used for bunking, the stowage it represents is more accessable. AND it's still a settee. Tho you may have to sling a back support under the shelf?

Interesting you have brought the bridge deck forward. This would create athwartship stowage if it is designed as a locker with lids in the c'pit seats.
But why not put the breaker and panel 'box' you show into the space above the berth? Design it as a door to provide access behind the displays.
Then that table there might become the chart table, perhaps with a further pull out extension?

I like the 'sparse' ladder for the moment. (Not having kids, I favor three rungs.) Your cabinet placement lends me to see what might happen in 338. One thing I would toy with is to do away with the ladder and somehow design steps in the furniture, either pull-outs or fold-downs. Right? I have to do it because the only standing room inside is with the hatch open! So I would rather have the room to turn around in than the convenience of a stairway. If you have an inboard then this is probably moot.

Had a ladder once in another boat with wide rungs and stiles that was comfortable to climb, yet could be lifted, when below, and set back out of the way. You just pulled it forward again to use. It could also easily be removed to gain access under the cockpit. The legs were in sockets on the sole in climbing position and the top of the stiles were captured in slots in the counter. Didn't get a patent on it. Probably do it again.

Master stateroom double is the V-berth, right? With no pull-out settee in the main?