The album of Ariel #422

[frank durant]

I just looked back at your previous posts..what a beauty !! Just in remarkable shape for an ole gal !! You are so lucky to find such an obviously 'loved' boat and she was so lucky you found her to carry on that pride of ownership !!

[ebb]

Kurt, I can look at something a number of times befor it sinks in.
Let me ask this: are you at all worried about taking the (let's call it) spaciousness of the cabin away by having the long counter/stowage on the starboard side?
I ask because I'm looking to do the same by raising of platform levels in 338 and I'm really worried about stuffing the old girl like a thankgiving turkey. I want to sit at the dinette/chart table and look out all four windows. That raises the seat up maybe 6". And taking that as the double bunk conversion height, it makes for a lot more stowage, but at what cost?

338's bit of quarter berth that sticks into the cabin is too low to sit on (except when getting in and ducking under the bridge deck), and would only be accessable by moving the ladder and bending the dinette seat forward. If it is used as a berth you could raise your knees. At least I assume so, not tested with cushion.

Your drawing has me seeing 338's portside opposite the dinette having something very similar to your starboard side. Maybe something not as wide following off the galley - a workbench, double wide shelf, like that - but still enuf cubic space for a double bunk coming across the aisle.

But it could still a good idea to have a single fore and aft seat where one could scrunch down in with head under the deck. Assume bracing oneself on either tack.

Anyway.
Wondering what your thinking might be on our cabin viz roomyness? I worry about it.
338 may have even more of her compression bulkhead removed and a laminated ARCH bent in - as a way of getting more side room and somehow incorporating the Vberth wholely into the cabin. In fact, the height of the Vberth brought into the cabin as the platform/seat datum. 7", I think.

Raising the bar, er, bunk, so to speak.

[george copeland]

Thanks all for the compliments--Ebb: the water line is where it is as a function of the previous owner's decisions. I just let it stand. I suppose it is a bit high, but the boat has made well-laden trips to Louisiana, all over the Texas coast, and at least one long haul to Belize. I have never gotten her loaded-up enough to settle that extra 2 inches or so.
Mr. Durant--if ye like varnish, ye might have more soulful satisfaction to come. Just finished a total rework of the interior, but haven't put the photos in. All interior teak has a mirror finish--just so the Executive Officer could avoid the trouble of finding a mirror in the morning.

[mbd]

Hey George, I'm anxious to see your pictures, and you've a most excellent boat as well, but I think you may be posting on Kurt's Gallery thread (Ariel 422) instead of yours???

[CapnK]

Ebb -

As I type, my laptop is sitting on the starboard side shelf I erected over the big storage bins. This shelf sits 24" over the original berth height (and/or 36" above the sole), is 48" long (going aft from the hanging locker) and is, I've found, a comfortable height when standing to cook from, use the laptop, etc. However, I will be, when I build in the final version (this being a working prototype), making a top that is 2" lower. Reason for that being that will give me 10" storage up against the hull, under the side deck.

Having the big shelf and stowage under it doesn't seem to have taken away from the roomy feeling of the cabin (which does seem roomy, to me at least, my previous boat having been much tighter belowdecks). It may do so a bit more with a dinette table to port. However, I do intend to make the dinette table drop-able, so that I can convert it to a berth much like what we have from the factory.

My working prototype countertop does not extend all the way to the after bulkhead - being experimental, I went with a piece of ply that I already had on hand which was only 48" in length. Where my icebox was, the countertop height remains original for now at least. Actually, that stepped-down area is working out nicely, and might be seen in some form when I finish. At some point in time, I will raise it to line it up with the rest, and see how that "feels" before making a decision. One object of my living aboard is to make sure that I have modifications optimized *before* I build them in. I am too lazy to have to do something twice. That lower area may suffice as a place to sit while underway and still be able to see out of the deadlights, but it would need to be a bit convertable as I intend to have the icebox under there. It would not be a fore/aft aligned seat, but bracing for movement of the boat would be quite easy. Starboard tack, your feet would be about level with your head, though, and on port, it might be too much like standing up.

One idea that keeps coming back to me in different shapes and form is an old one: the hammock. Have you seen hammock chairs? Something like that could be designed to be slung in the cabin, secured at four corners so that the person sitting there did not get bashed against the boat whenever a wave rolled under. Oddball thinking, yes, but there just may be a way to implement it so that it would work, and work well. It would be extremely stowable, too.

One other oddball thing that I have been thinking may lend itself to what you are thinking, as regards a companionway ladder: I'm considering using a fold-down, telescoping ladder of the transom mount type up under the bridgedeck. It could be collapsed and stowed out of the way when belowdecks, and would provide for a higher top step (which would be good for when washboards were in at sea), as well as closer spacing between steps than the original steps offer. Nothing about the idea seems bad to me, though I am still considering it. For you and your plans, it might make access to the pilot berth a little more handy.

I'm interested to hear any feedback on my "oddball" ideas.

[CapnK]

Hey George, I'm anxious to see your pictures, and you've a most excellent boat as well, but I think you may be posting on Kurt's Gallery thread (Ariel 422) instead of yours???

No problem with me, either way! She *is* a fine looking vessel! Katie Marie also has a higher-than-usual waterline, but it is working well at keeping stains off of the hull.

[mbd]

Neat idea with the folding ladder, Kurt. FWIW, I love my companionway ladder for ease of use (the kids can scramble up and down it) and would design an interior around it in a heartbeat. A great PO mod.



Also, just curious if any of you modification mavens have considered an athwartship convertable dinnette? Working areas and shelves could be fore or aft (or both) of the dinnette, you could still have double settees to either side when not "deployed", and the table could be used up in the cockpit as well...

[CapnK]

Mike - Good thinking! Your idea has several advantages to it. Sitting here this morning looking at what I have so far, trying to think about how your ideas might fit in.

Looking at the ladder picture (thx for the link - so many pictures here it's hard to keep track of them ), I think that's one of the ones I saw which got me thinking about the steps. Looks nicely done, and not overly intrusive, if at all. I've measured a line from the bridgedeck (interior front edge) and it's right at 4'. Since there are several different readily-available, collapsible transom ladders that size, and although it probably won't look as nice as yours, it should be an easy project.

Also in that picture, it looks like there is a cut-out in the aft bulkhead, at the foot of the port berth. What was that for? I'm going to empty that locker this weekend and make some measurements for the foot-end of a sea berth. I'm wondering if I will be able to size it so that a moveable bin/drawer that would fit there would also fit into my under-counter area.

[mbd]

Thanks Kurt! Now GIMP it! I'm dying to see a layout.

My batteries are stored in the forward end of the port cockpit locker. That cutout is for access to the forward most battery. Day light to the right, battery to the left under the counter...

The ladder is not intrusive in the slightest. Did I say I really really like it? If you're interested, I can take some pics and measurements and email 'em to you off-line.

[CapnK]

Mike - Thx for the offer to measure, but I can get a good idea from looking at your pic, and measuring the same space here, so there's no need for you to "work" on my behalf. Or did you just need an excuse to go to your boat?

I'll GIMP something up on the athwartship dinette idea once I think about it a little more. I was flipping through my (recently rediscovered) copy of Ferenc Mate's "Finely Fitted Yacht", and saw an idea that might have some uses. It was a settee which turns into a pull-out double berth. I'll try to describe it:

The seat part of the settee (where your butt goes) is a series of slats all side by side, like piano keys. Even-numbered slats are fixed/don't move, odd-numbered slats can slide out from the fixed slats, and are attached to the bunks edge board. When you pull the edge board, the movable slats slide out, creating a surface twice as large as it had been. Folding or removeable legs are used to support the outer edge of the berth. Does this make sense? I'll look up the page number and post it later.

This would be a great way to implement an athwartships berth, there would be no board to have to stow/unstow when setting up the berth - for sleeping mode, just pull it out like a sliding shelf, put the cushion in place, and rack out, and do the reverse to go back to working mode. This might also make a good way to implement a seat also. A pull-out table is also suggested by this idea.

Lots of possibilities.

[ebb]

Slat idea sounds interesting. If access to the stowage is thru the top would that still work? Simpler is another piece of ply under the seat cushion that could be pulled across the aisle, or for access in sail mode the piece could be lifted up like a lid to get to the lockers.

Seatback lockers on one side could be dedicated to holding the bedding when in settee mode. That seat back could be slid down (maybe with the cushions velcroed on) to have the stow area open while bunking and make the cross asile piece less wide and rectangular, but support would be needed with added cross pieces. Or the front vertical of the settee could be designed to pull out for fore and aft support using the cabin sole.

338's q-berth is much lower that the existing settees allowing the unfortunate to raise the knees in a very tight area anyway. Space for the occupant to insert self has to be provided. That brings the q-berth out a bit into the cabin and also suggests that the foot of the companionway not be under the double bunk. Access up nad down via the ladder should planned for when the double is set up.

This is a good arguement for an athwartship double. If you are under 5'7", let's say, it may work great. Taller folk will need room nearly hull to hullside, and that would make upright lockers on both side not possible, or you'd have to empty them for sleeping. There is also the amount of room UP you need for the mattress cushions, feet, and raising the head.

Not willing to loose a cubic inch of stowage, I opted to fore and aft body arrangements where generally you have the central full height of the cabin. Some small boat interiors have the V-berth area as the sole double bunking possibility. I think Flicka, which has comprable interior volume, is one. Now what I'm going to end up with on 338 doesn't matter here. BUT

I've just about convinced self for various reasons to push the whole double bunk issue forward and bring the existing V-berth height into the cabin. I'm negotiating with self on laminating a true arch on the cabin side of the main bulkhead that would widen the width at bunk/seat level. It would still include the crossbeam. I feel the mast could use the support there anyway as it is but half supported by the compression beam. Would have to alter what is already an alteration. That's a bummer.

Looking out of the windows while seated at the dinette/chart table is absolutely necessary imco for cruising. Doing that raises the dinette seat to near the same height as the V-berth. Won't argue with the deeper lockers under the seats. The galley across the aisle at the companionway might be operable while sitting higher up. I like Kurt's full counter, 338's would be on the port side. It would allow a number of configurations including side access drawers and lockers, even a workbench. Altho self would not have headroom. And. perhaps, a remaining seat at the original level for wedging into in rough weather. And aesthetically having it as an open space in all that proposed buildup.

Anyway, athwartships might give you access to the head between the V-berths AND the foot of the ladder for weekending in essentially a traditional Ariel setup. Privacy in the head area is almost the most important consideration when both sexes are aboard. And the captain needs to get up on deck in a jiffy. If you decide not to have a shower ala franco in the V, maybe a sink is a good compromise.

[CapnK]

Ebb - Curse you and your arched strongback idea for making me rethink some perfectly good plans... Went and looked at some Flicka interiors (really, see one of each (w/head and w/out) and you've seen 'em all - no mods going on in the Flicka community it looks like) for a refresher. They are simple, open, workable, and don't have a bulkheaded interior. It would be so nice to have that open feeling, which takes me back somewhat to what I was thinking several months ago. I guess that for me it'll come down to getting interior mods done either sooner, or going all out. I like the blank canvas you and TonyG have with your no-interior, sanded-to-glass empty hulls. Will I go there? Right now, only the Shadow knows...

I assume your interior stands much as it looks in this long ago pic: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...ntid=644&stc=1

Which seems to show a wider, more open interior already. You are talking about opening up the base of the bulkhead even more? See what you think about the GIMP'ed pic below - it would be easy to do with your existing bulkhead modification.

Sitting here on the port settee and looking through the bulkhead opening while imagining away the hanging locker and drawer cabinetry, I'm wondering now if, when I drop my mast for repairs/upgrading soon, I shouldn't go ahead with modifying the main bulkhead. Aaaarrrgghhhh... Something to mull over...

OK, one more pic after Ebb's bulkhead. Using the idea of sliding interior parts, it would be easy to make a dinette that slides out of the starboard side cabinet. Not done to scale or with any realism, it simply illustrates a possibility. The blue lines could be 2 seats and a table surface which pull out from the cabinet. Edit: I did some measuring - space between berths is 27" or so. A 20" wide pull-out seat/tabletop would leave enough room to one side that you could skooch by it without needing to slide it back in. The seat height could be placed so that it gave a view out the deadlights when seated. Seatbacks could easily be incorporated - either flip-up or pull-out (like the seat bottoms). Legs for the seats (which would bear weight) could also be designed in. As could a pull-out footrest, placed low (not shown in the drawing), which would allow one to brace if the boat was moving. Heck, it could even be made so that, depending on what you needed, you could pull out either a dinette, or a berth. Hmmm... I'm liking this idea - it seems as if it would be a good addition, especially considering the space constraints of our small interiors...

[ebb]

( s i g h )
Kurt, Dreamers we be! Is that your interior? Could be 338's, except I left the remaining bulkhead intact under the deck.

Feel that the lam oak bean in 338 is plenty strong for the span. Also removed the balsa under the mast step and filled it with solid frp. So the curve of the deck is well established.

Been using some 1/4" wiggle ply to stack and bend into curves designing the hard dodger. Took a bundle down below and clamped it up on the bulkhead. The stuff is easy to arrange into any desirable curve. I left it up so that next time I got down to the boat and glanced at it I could tell if it was ok. Sometimes you can depend on that. I can,. because the head is not buzy with the idea, and the rightness of it can get thru. It looks real good to me.

It means cutting away the 'legs' and transfering the downward forces to the legs of a lam arch that would terminate further outboard on the V-berth bulkhead. Whether the arch is more engineer correct as a roman radius or can be tweeked into a more pleasing curve I don't know.

Would leave some bulkhead, as much as possible to keep rigidity in the hull. The main shroud plates are there, and the others, so I would keep it solid under the side decks. Might add alot more and wider tabbing of bulkhead to hull.

Havn't really thought about it, doing other things on the boat. I have not attached/glued/bolted the existing lam beam to the roof. So it depends on its shape and struts for immobility. More support for the footprint of the mast imco would be good. So how much material and weight it would take is the problem. The part of the struts/legs that would remain comes down along the cabin side and just below would be married to the arch legs. This is the critical meeting point and requires some thinking.

Feeling is that it could be done. Must be done. It has to be as efficient and light as possible. Might leave the resulting triangular spaces in the upper corners open or hollow. Who knows. Maybe this is a concerted effort?

The impetus for this is really to get the whole horizonal sleeping mode out of the important part of the cabin.

My thinking on the main table, chart and dining, is to bring it out solid with the shelves and lockers but have it hinge UP at the appropriate place so that it would merely hook on the cabin side. That's as far as I've got on that idea. But I do know that the only real fore-and-aft seating on the boat will get much use! Gotta Go Now.

[CapnK]

Ebb -

I'll be digesting the rest of your post, but that pic is of *your* bulkhead. I copied the picture from #338's Gallery pages, then I used the GIMP to "cut away" areas of the upper, outer parts of it (I pasted in the hull using parts of your hull from up in the forepeak). I wanted to see what it would look like, and thought you might want to see it too...

[ebb]

Amazing and scary too. Like some gimp cut and pasting me out of the big picture - brrr r r, very sci-fi. But what a great tool it is that allows you to paint an interior - like the Ariel's - move things around til just right, and then get measurements. Put those measurements in another program and have a machine cut the parts, put em ina box, and fed-ex right to the boat! Done!

Until somebody interjects here pointing out some glaring fault (besides Carl A. looking paler than usual), the arch beam certianly seems like the perfect space opener. If only I'd had a gimp of my own back then! And the presense of mind.

The best way is to start empty, with just the bulkhead, make patterns, glue up two arches flat in the shop, one for either side of the existing bulkhead. Bolt and glue in place, cut out all the middle. With the bulkhead pieces filling out the spaces to the cabin sides and to the hull - I think you'd end up with an wide open space to play with (in) and an even stronger support for the mast compression, as well as the compression forces of the chainplates. Like Bingham's quantum leap.

You might stabilize the liner on the cabin side by drilling holes in it where the arch will bear and inject the space inside with epoxy and cabosil. Easy.

I'd play with the gimp now if I could. I'd see how the forward double bunk idea would work with the new arch and still allow the head easy access. Or not. (338 has a bulkhead now where the cross piece was in the original V-berth layput - keeps the anchors, ground tackle and warps separate from the accomadation - but it brings the bed WAY out into the cabin). If all sleeping by a couple could be up forward there as one single while under way, and one double while parked, it would be hard not to go for it. It would permanently free up at least half the cabin, The table could still be used and the galley. As for the head, a midget potti could be made available in the cabin or out in the cockpit.


Add that the hatch right over head is a clincher for this arrangement.
Another is that as a single, sleeping with head forward or head aft is an option too.