Here's what it looked like before the foam really went wild. By the days end we had sanded it down and applied the first coat of thickened epoxy. Once there is enough epoxy down there we'll put in some matt, fabric, roving, and a light weight fabric on top to help smooth things out. If you've ever poked or sliced your finger cleaning a bilge, you know why I'm being anal.
G A W W W D ! ! !
I thought about taking a look and then forgot! Loosing it.
In pic #162, what did you make of the 'cake' stuff between layers in the hole? Do I understand you foamed the void? To me it shows that the ballast has settled in the years since it was put in there with shop floor shims.
For anybody rennovating...
It obviously important to find out the condition of the ballast. In my considered opinion any void should be filled solid with something that will keep the space clear of water that seeps through the hull laminate and down through the bilge. And through the sump, if the boat has one like 338, at the end of the ballast.
It's possible, but nobody has reported it, that the ballast could work, move, as the boat is sailed. Even tho the area is supposedly sealed, my feeling was that if the boat went aground and holed herself down there at least it would be mostly solid stuff exposed in 338's case.
Ebb, The area we're dealing with here is behind the lead ballast. Those holes I drilled are in the aft section of the bilge where it begins to rise from the deepest part.
The stuff in post# 162 is the original foam. It was dry and stuck to the glass pretty good. Initially, I dug rather agressively with my big, busted screwdriver thinking I would be replacing alot more foam filler. Not much of it came loose though. The top hole didn't even commincate with the bottom three. The bottom three shared a space just below the surface of the fiberglass. The biggest hole had a 1/2" crevice that lead downward about 8". After fishing around with some stiff wire I decided it really wasn't as bad as I thought, and, I had better start thinking about repairing the void instead of making it worse.
Yeah, I may have water migrating into the void again, but it won't come from the bilge. One of these fine vessels has a drainplug installed and I'm begining to think that may be the way to handle seepage. Maybe even two plugs so you could force air through to facilitate drying....would the owner of said boat lead me to the link?
It's described in the manual.Originally Posted by Tony G
Hey Tony, I got the proportions wrong, what we were looking at. So you are putting foam back in.
Strange, in all the years I've been mucking about they have not come up with another type of expanding foam than polyurethane. Watch that stuff, the fumes are genuinely lethal, pour and get out of the boat immediately, enjoy your posts, fruits of labor! I've recently used some one part out of an aersol can. Not the same as two part. Befor it settles down it seems to shrink.
It isn't much further down to the bottom at the end of the encapsulated lead, like you say, maybe 8". Since I tanked 338 under the sole and brought fittings out the bottom of the tank aft, which is the top of the ballast, I found the extra depth convenient for turning T's and so forth. It's tight down in there. Also there's just enough room for a small bilge pump and maybe the hose end from the manual. Not much volume tho.
So I'll leave some of the very narrow V going back to the rudder unfilled to gain a couple gallons. The narrow V is suspiciously sloped up at the end of the hull and probably stuffed with unraveled roving and unreinforced plastic. 338 came without Everett's folly tho. Lucky, I guess. Otherwise, without the volume under the sole, tanked, it won't take but a few gallons to put bilge water on the cabin sole!
You know they don't guarantee expanded foam against water intrusion. They say closed cell but water gets in anyway. I asked the guys at TAP, complaining as I do at the quality of products consumer, one suggested mixing styrofoam pellets and epoxy for a filler. I mentioned epoxy exotherm might be excessive, so you'd have to do small batches. It's an untried idea. Maybe cheaper than buying the 2 qt foam kit for such a small space.
Last edited by ebb; 08-22-2005 at 07:05 AM.
Another day and a little more progress...
Out with the old!
Yee! 'Pretty sure the EPA won't let me toss those in the dumpster.
We changed the sole under the galley a bit. It'll ride lower and be a little skinnier.
...in with the new.
Had enough time to squeeze out a set of these today too.
Thanks to Karen and Jerry ( and Mark A. too) for timely article in Good Old Boat magazine. It is a bit more 'complex' than I had originally planned but I like it much more.
Ebb, this post is for you. Not a whole lot to look at yet.
The s.s. bolts stick out about 5/8". The outside it ready for a little more fairing compound.
I took CPete's lead and bought some barrel nuts. Each port will get 6 of them to hold the trim piece on inside. The rest of the bolts get washers and nuts to hole the lite in place.
I'm leaning toward butyl as a sealant and then run a bead of whilte 101 around the opening to hide the black. I dunno...that's a ways away yet. things can change here in a day!
Whal arl be hornswaggled!
Believe I got the concept, didn't imagine the outer unframes so smooth. No doubt 'see' it better with the shiney finish coat creating some shape and shadow. And you'll paint the cabin color right up to the lite, right?
Can't see why it won't work - it's truely hydrodynamic - great idea! If I hadn't restored my frames I might steal it for 338. It's real stealth! Got a shot of the molds? You must have said already but what reinforcement if any did you use in the pieces?
Might finish your system with butyl for the mere ease of maintenance (replacement). Don't know what curves you got but they must be like 338's. I'd guesstimate that the lites theirselves have about a 1/4" curve. Curved lex will fit in there like hand in glove.
(Noticed with most sheet material and my piece of 4X8 3/8" lexan that sheets have a natural side they want to curve to. You know, balance the sheet on edge, sight down its length, and lo! there's a side that wants to bend more than the other, imco. Anyway it's that curve that the plastic wants most to spend its life in. Even after a piece is cut small like the window lite and it looks flat, it'll want to take a curve one way best. This curve adds a lot of strength to a flat panel. And I'd guess the natural curve has little stress. You can persuade lexan into more of a curve with hot water, or even weight in the middle of a span for a period of time. My method for 338's. Don't think 1/2" lexan can be 'naturally' bent. Aside from smoke grey lites. 338 will have a lexan main hatch slide and probably drop boards too. All the curves, real & imagined, will be facing out!
Your window invention is great! Maybe the arguement is that if the butyl doesn't work for some reason you can easily upgrade to something nastier! But the combers will slide right on bye! And those bolts, what are they? 1/4" - and how many? well, Nuttin' is gonna stir them babies.
Last edited by ebb; 08-23-2005 at 06:16 AM.
Ebb,
The basic mold/form for the ports is pictured in post #124 on this very same thread. In that photo the holes have not been drilled yet. The bolt spacing/placement was determined and holes were drilled on the mold to act as drill guides so every port should be the same (mechanically, and in theory, of course).
The mix was a relatively loose mix of epoxy and cabosil with milled glass fibers(hate the stuff) and hand chopped roving fibers 1 1/2" to 2" long. What a MESS! The molds were clamped onto the previously shimmed and spot filled port openings. Then the 'mix' was added, poked, twisted, pulled into place. It really moved as one glob from the pot to the mold, and more than once I thought this is never going to work. I was almost scared to knock the molds off when it was cured. Thought for sure I'd be grinding the whole mess down and going with plan D or E. But I'm stubborn and did the job in managable stages.
The bolts are 1/4". I drew the original concept with smaller ( I forget the # size) but when I was standing in the aisle at the store I kept thinking these are way too small-I'll bend them trying to sand the filler.
There is a little bow in the openings. That's why I'm leaning toward a butyl seal. The stuff can fill iregularities with ease and it's not so bad to work with.
Sure wish I could get that high-build primer that you've been using. The local SW can't/won't get it.
You should be able to find white butyl. I got some at Ace Hardware for something like 2.50 a tube. I used 4 tubes, I think, on Dasein's 4 deadlights, 6 ports, and a couple of odd plastic fittings.
Nathan
Dasein, Triton 668
www.dasein668.com
Nathan,
Thanks for the heads up at Ace. I love my neighborhood Ace store. While they may not be a true chandlery, it is the only place around here to find 5200 or a decent assortment of stainless fasteners.
Mike,
Well, the vacuum pump was a complete wash...We applied the K.I.S.S. principle and it worked just fine. It was like sand casting, sort of, and upside down.
I taped the mold with packing tape, being the PVA turned out to be a PIA, then stapled the matt in place to keep it from sliding out of place. The matt was heavily wetted and a layer of FG fabric was worked down over the top. Cover the mess with lightweight plastic wrap and pack it six inches of sand.
After about four hours I dug it out and put some filler on the back and added some styro pieces for build up and waited another hour or two. When it got to a real tacky state, I wetted out some more matt and covered the back again. By night fall it was ready to come off the mold.
Here's what the cat coughed up...
Last edited by Tony G; 08-30-2005 at 07:00 AM.
Here's the top side. You can see the lines from the tape. Of course it still needs sanding and some filleting and fairing on the 'pretty' side. The bottom will get some more reinforcing.
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