Commander #274 Old Glory

[Stephan]

Hello dear Association members,

My name is Stephan, and I just became the very happy and excited owner of "Encore", a Commander from 1964 (or 1966), hull #274. I'll be visiting here a lot to learn as much as I can about this boat. This is my very first sail boat, and I'm a little scared about learning how to fix things, operate the ship and become a good sailor. I have little technical information about her yet, but this will hopefully change. I'll try to find a mooring in Monroe Harbor, Chicago, for her.

I greet you all!

Stephan

[eric (deceased)]

just remember there are no small mistakes on a big boat.have fun with your new boat-do not ever let anyone tell you-"YOU CAN'T"---read -study -and learn as much as you can.you can never loose experience

[Robert Lemasters]

Thats exactly how I felt about my Commander.Sailing is such an imposing sport/recreation/life... I feel a little awkward sometimes around everyone who seem to have so much sailing experience and know how. But everyone in this Association is only too glad to help out. Take your time, don't rush, read, ask questions, it will all work out. For me the sailing part is now what its about, doing something for the first time, stepping out of my comfort zone, learning...the money...the money...the money (wife's words)...but it's fun, exciting and spills over into other things and is well worth it. Where do you sail out of? Welcome aboard.

[Stephan]

Great forum!
Lots of photos, information, interesting and knowledgable posts, I couldn't have come to a better place to find out about my Commander.
The boat is currently on dry land in Winthop Harbor, north of Chicago.
Now if anybody has a mooring can for me in Chicago my bliss is complete.

Greetings, Stephan

[Stephan]

I was happy to have a colleague from work showing me some tricks on my boat today - he's an old salt and I'm utterly new. The weather was perfect - 10-15 knots of wind, nice sunshine, etc. The boat behaved nice. My friend figured out a good way for riggging the working jib - between the first and the second shroud. I didn't use the winches at all - I guess they'll only be useful for the Genoa... Even though my main is stone old (and has a broken batten) we made good headway on the lake off Chicago.
One thing I noticed was that the motor well got pretty swamped while the outboarder was in it. when I got the outboarder lifted and put the plug in things got better. But if I go out by myself it's pretty hard to get the motor in and out, so I see two ways:
1. Leave the motor in the well and maybe shift my butt further to the front of the boat to get the stern up.
2. Build something to lift the motor up more easily. I remember seeing the davit in the Association Manual, but that thing would seem to be in the way a lot. Why not attach a block to the backstay and lift the motor from that? Backstay too weak for that?

I'm a happy new boater!

[Robert Lemasters]

Yeh, sailing don't you just love it. My Commander also used to take on lots of water through the engine well. I now have two deep cycle batteries that I have moved forward and center (amidships) rather then the single battery that was in a box under the Starboard cockpit seat. I also replaced my old interior cusions with new thicker cusions with thicker foam and covers(nolgahide-damn spelling) that are somewhat heavier then the old cusions. My ol' boat never had a watertank and of course the cabin is smaller than the Ariel (less weight). Maybe the hull and weight distribution was for the Ariel with more weight foreward then the Commander, I don't know. But my ol'boat now dosn't take on much water through the engine well with the six hp Nissan four stroke that's weighs fifty or so lbs.I also have installed a watertight deck hatch on the cockpit deck under which I store just about everything which puts more weight foreward and center.I also am new to sailing and I still need someone to sail with(safer with all of the large boat traffic here in Portsmouth VA., easier and more fun), it's a job sailing this boat singlehanded at my age, I will be rigging my Commander for single handling this winter with a furler and some other things.Good sailing.

[Bill]

One thing I noticed was that the motor well got pretty swamped while the outboarder was in it.

Leaving the ob in the well while sailing means picking up a lot of water regardless of weight distribution. If possible, it's best to remove the engine and insert the plug. This will become more important as the wind speed climbs over the 15 to 18 knot range and the rail gets closer to the water going to weather. Racers place the engine on the sole between the two cabins for better weight distribution, but it's easier just to store the ob in the lazarette.

The manual has a plan for a skirt arrangement to surround the engine and prevent water intrusion. The manual also has instructions for installing the Gahaurer lifting davit to use to R&R the engine following Gene Roberts' initial installation. A search of the board will turn up at least one other such installation as well as further discussion of the water intrusion issue.

It also might be a good idea to search the board on jib track placement.

The need to use winches with the working jib will become obvious as soon as the wind speed picks up, or if you want to adjust the trim of the jib after tacking.

If this is your first real displacement keelboat sailing experience, paying a pro to sail with you for a couple of hours could be money well spent.

[Robert Lemasters]

I havn't had a chance to use my engine well plug while sailing because of the heavy large boat traffic here. Tugs with barges and containership tows along with other large and often fast motor yachts don't give a rats behind about some slow ol'sailboat.To be safe it's best for me to have the motor ready to go.I've been in some spots where the motor kept me out of serious trouble.Have you noticed a speed and handling differance with the motor out and the plug in? The bay is more than an hour or so away where there is plenty of sea room and I can't wait to sail with the motor up.

[Bill]

Have you noticed a speed and handling differance with the motor out and the plug in?

Definate yes, and it's quite obvious in one design racing. The effect of leaving the engine in the well is like drgging a big anchor! Not to mention that it looks really ugly. Attaching the skirt shown in the manual will keep things dry, but you will still be hauling that ugly anchor around . . .

[Stephan]

The problem with taking the OB out is that it's a ***** to lift, and lowering it back is hardly easier. The davit in the manual sure looks sturdy, but I'd rather not have that whole assembly in the cockpit. What's your opinion about attaching a block to the backstay and lifting the motor up on that? My Honda is about 60 lbs, and given the angle of the backstay and adding dynamic forces, I'd expect the extra force on the backstay wouldn't exceed 200 or 300 lbs. Is that too much? I obviously don't want to break the mast to get the motor out.
After we got the motor out and the plug in the water gradually drained from the well all right. The speed difference wasn't all that obvious, but I'm not a racer, and my sails are 40 years old anyway. And the safety issue is on my mind as well - while I'm close to shore the motor sure helps avoiding dangerous situations, and further away from shore the water gets rough and I'm not happy walking around with a 60 lb weight in my arms in the cockpit!

As for the winching of the working jib - you agree the tracks I'm using on the cabin roof are in a good positon for the jib, right? I guess I could use the winches on the doghouse if I need more power - the big winches on the coamings are too low to go to from the roof.

I'm lucky to have the PO, my colleague and you guys for advice.

[Bill]

. . . but I'd rather not have that whole assembly in the cockpit. . . . you agree the tracks I'm using on the cabin roof are in a good positon for the jib, right?

The davit knocks down into a very small package that can fit in a cockpit locker or even under a bunk. That's why Gene got it. Scott Galloway (#330) extols the virtues of the davit. Give him a hail at scottg[at]solopublications (dot) com for more information.

The jib track really should be on the deck for efficient sail control. The usual placement for a deck sweeping jib is opposite the forward window in the cabin and out at an increasing angle as the track goes aft. The Genoa track starts behind the aftermost shroud chainplate and runs aft to the first quarter or so of the cockpit. Where you place the car & block depend on the size of the Genoa being flown -- 120% closer to the bow, the 160% closer to the stern. To get an idea of placement, check the posts & photos on the subject. For example, http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...read.php?t=283 where there are photos of track placement.

[eric (deceased)]

swamping the lazarette was and is a commonplace occurrance---not to be to much of a concern----it will not affect the seaworthiness unless it begins to flood the bildge.have that structural bulkhead on the cockpit side water tight.a small hand held bilge pump or cut-off plasic water bottle will get that last bit of water out.I put the plug in place during the crossings----but when the out board was used ----as the stern sat down on a wave the lazarrete did flood---the major concern was swampimg the motor----its best to have more than one outboard----they need only be 4-5 hp----or you can have a larger one-for those motoring into wind conditions----as starcrest had a 10 hp merc-----what a pain----it was replaced by a more easier to man handle 5 hp mariner---this went to the achillies as well

[Robert Lemasters]

Eric, when I restored my Commander, one of the things that was replaced was the old lazarette drain. There was water in the lazarette all of the time sloshing about. I fiberglassed in a larger replacement drain, fabricated from PVC pipe, that emptys out much faster without clogging. The Pearson 26 that I part own has the same problem, water in engine well that drains too slowly or not at all. Seems to be a common Pearson design problem on a lot of thier boats over the years.

[Stephan]

Yesterday I went out again, first by myself and the sailing was so much fun - nice steady breeze so I got a pretty constant 6 knots, even with the motor dragging. By myself I just can't be bothered to lift the motor out of the well.
Of course I got more and more water in there, and the gas tank started floating around and falling over, so I eventually took that out from the lazarette and put it on the cockpit floor.
One of the coaming boards finally broke in two about halfway and I will have to maybe put some stainless steel plates (or bronze) along the crack to put them together again.
A friend of mine called and I returned to harbor to pick him up, banged the boat against the seawall a little (seawall got scratched), then out again, and now it really started blowing. I never had the rail in the water before, and boy, was that fun (and a bit scary, but only afterwards...) We were surprised to look down into the water from so far above. Heeling seemed sometimes well over 45 degrees, but I guess subjectively this always seems more extreme than it really was. Anyway I was busy enough (and we had plenty spray) to not get the good camera out, which in hindsight is a pity, of course. But there always is a next time.
I thought to recheck the weather channel and after we heard the 'small craft advisory', we decided to head back. Everything in the cabin was a shambles, the spare motor had fallen off the bunk onto the cabin floor, boxes etc lying all over. What an adventure! Next time before I go out I have to tied down things below.

[bill@ariel231]

Stephan

if the coaming is cracked and glue alone won't do the job, you may have better luck with a dutchman repair (or if they are really bad. call ebb.. his old coamings are available).

sounds like the sail was fun. did you try throwing in a reef on the main?

cheers,
bill