Just brought 4 tubes white Boat Life thiokol from Vast Bloatenne for $84 out the door (as fast as possible!)
It came out of the tube more or less as I remembered it (loose pudding) as I haven't used it for decades.
I had to apply it overhead - which was ok if I pressed the bead onto the surface, but any loose glob would fall off leaving a short thin tail. The rubber was not very viscous. The temp was between 64 and 70. I would guess fairly low humidity, but this is a marina where the yard is located.
It has been five days since applying the stuff. It has set, BUT NOT FIRMLY.
The gel coat has been sanded and had a final wipe down with evil solvent. The wood had been coated with CPES and cleaned back to the wood with alcohol to remove any surface residue (weeks ago) and the glue surface was abraded with 40 grit and wiped of any dust.
Here's the problem: THE BOATLIFE DOES NOT SEEM TO HAVE STUCK TO ANYTHING! I can lift the squeeze out back to the work without a problem, any drips or threads of rubber on the topsides or blue tape rub off with a finger. Anybody know what's going on? Have a feeling I shudda gotten a Sika sulfide from the hardware!!!
There is a pond going in on the estate here using hypalon as the liner. The installer has used a 'construction polysulfide' for a sealer. The product peels away like a postit note. No adhesion what so ever. Anybody know what goop would stick to an Avon? What sticks to hypalon besides an electrically welded joint???
The problem, without going into detail, is that the installation requires a sort of gasket or goop line to work. They need to redesign their concept. There are after market 'bicycle tire repair adhesives' for airboats but that isn't what is needed here. Just wondering if any tube rubbers would do the trick?
Like being naive, I know I'm stupid!
But why is this exorbidently stupid stuff acting like a gasket
rather than a caulk?
[By the way, the contractor has come up with a magic out of the tube stuff himself. At $30 a pop. Called Adeka Ultra Seal it is a hydrophilic rubber that expands in the presense of water, including seawater. So it must be a kind of closed cell foam that returns to its original dimension when dry and expands when wet. Made of modified natural rubber it'll never find a place in the marine market, unless it'd come UV protected or synthetic.] But an interesting concept.
Mac,
Believe Sikaflex is all polyurethane.
Wanted polysulfide because it has twice the longevity and so far as I know does not eventually get hard (UV protected) like p.urethane or bedding compound like Dolphinite.
Polysulfide supposedly has a longer open time, which was also what was needed in this case.
The only other choice for p.sulfide is 3M101 ($15) and while I have good feelings about the company still I don't know if their thiokol clone lasts like the original. Maybe it's better. Maybe a whole lot better than the current usurious Boatlife gasket material I seem to have used.
Most of these rubber caulks have an ultimate lifespan. Fittings will have to be taken apart and rebedded eventually. Called maintenance. The pieces I'm installing on 338 will most likely never be taken off in my lifetime, or anybody elses!
By now, the BoatLife has firmed up considerably on the boat
and the spider threads don't rub off quite as easy
and they leave a telltale white print behind that doesn't rub off.
But I still can pop up a lip of rubber off the work,
rather like thumbing off the sealer lid on a Mason jar.
Moisture, temperature and cure time affect polysulfide cure.
I will leave the current work clamped up for at least 30 days!
Polysulfide is the bedding compound of choice for boats.*
It is convincingly argued to be the only synthetic rubber anyone
should use on a boat. Silicone is very limited and p.urethane
much too agressive.
While there seems to be many sulfide rubber compounds available
in the window and concrete trades, only two products, BoatLife
and 3M101 are available for "recreational" marine use. 101 is
available from TAP in the Bay Area.
Haven't really surveyed the home suppliers but the independant
hardware I use, that caters to area contractors, does not carry any
single part polysulfide in a tube.
Lack of competition allows BoatLife and wm to charge exorbitent
prices for a compound that's been around since WW2. I shudda
gone with 101, and I may siill do that.
*Bedding compound, sealant, caulking, whatever it is called HAS to
have some adhesive quality. The TOOagressive 5200 has produced
4200. I've never used it and I haven't read on the net of anyone
actually taking it apart yet. Have you? P.urethane lacks P.sulfide's
good qualities. P.sulfide stays flexible in UV and therefore is perfect for
stanchion bases for instance, and cleats, and wooden parts bedded
to frp. It's also resistant to solvents, viz, the fuel fill fitting. But the
rubber should "bond" to both surfaces! You cannot use
p.sulfide for potable water containment because it has solvents like
xylene IN it. (It has to be shipped 'HazMat' from the catalog store.)
You can find p.urethane rated (sortof) for water.
Another goop I'm aware of, but have not used, is the hybrid LifeSeal.
Writers often refer knowledgably to hybrids, in plural - but, unless you
can tell us, IT is the only one. LifeSeal is a mix of silicone and
polyurethane. Therefor usable for bedding acrylic and p.carbonate.
Maybe some synergistic quality has been created by mixing these
two problemastics together. Can anybody convince us to use this
product to bed in our lights? Right, what's it like taking windows
apart to rebed or change the plastic!!!
I'm going butyl.
Probably.
I used Lifeseal once. Found out it gets tacky very quickly. You have to clean it up around the fittings within about 5-10 minutes. Otherwise it will turn ragged when you try to wipe it.
Don't generally use it because it has silicone.
I usually use 3M 101. I thought they sold it in the small tubes, but I haven't seen it lately.
I recall that you shouldn't use Cetol next to polysulfide. If somebody is using Cetol they might want to look into that.
Really have to work clean with these goops. You can spread it everywhere, like a tar baby. Use many, many pairs of gloves.
C'pete,
just did briefly look into Cetol as bad over teak decks, where you'd find a lot of polysulfide in the seams. Those guys (Tanaya owners) are pretty traditional and have bad things to say about Cetol. It is a plastic and must have some volital solvents that on a warm day would disperse rapidly as it hardened into a film, right? But even so none of them use Cetol on Teak. Ever! They would stay with 15 coats good ole spar varnish or oil.
As to polysulfide as a bedding sealant, it is easy to scrape out or off the woodwork if you ever have to go into it again. This in contrast to p.urethane - p.,sulfide may seal or stick but can be removed easily, and imco that may be due to the density of the rubber. Silicone like p.urethane is just as impossible to remove with normal tools like blade scrapers, sandpaper, and sweat.
Did we mention it here?... just heard about it at the yard:
TDS (Teak Decking Systems - SIS 440)
Marketed as oxime rubber with a touch of silicone. (But oxime is a crosslinking, vulkanizing agent intimately connected with silicone.) It may be that TDS marketers are aware of the general predjudice against silicone in selling a substantially silicone product for teak decks!
Suposedly it has these good qualities: Has a 20yr life, 400% stretch, adheres well to all materials, does not act like silicone goo, and A/C skippers may be interested to know, it has been used successfully to rebed leaky deck chainplates with the chainplate covers. Skins fast requiring immediate removal of blue tape. Can be used over itself if the stuff to be covered is abraded and cut with a knife. That's the way I'd put the cover plates on.
I think that is what we payed the deck seams with on the Schooner Virginia when we built her . We decked her with Silver Bali instead of teak .
Wasn't impressed much +or - about the goop .
I checked with one of my fellow building crew members and indeed we used SIS-440 , which had to be reefed out and redone less than 2 years after the boat was launched .
I wouldn't totally blame the product though , the admistration was pushing us to get the job done regardless of conditions which were adverse at best on most days.
Paul said he has used it with great success on reasonable jobs .
Last edited by Mike Goodwin; 05-17-2006 at 06:31 PM.
AWESOME! What's that, 100 miles of seam that you not only filled and sanded -
BUT had to remove as well?
Don't know about the frikkin conditions but if the stuff only works in the lab, then ta hell with it! And the people who make it and sell it.
Really, as if we who work had all the time in the world to proof their puddings.
On a job like that, the sales rep and a tech should have been on site to advise.
That's enough for me to continue to keep away from the material.
AND KEEP SILICON OFF MY BOAT.
(now Silver Bali don't sound like no wood to me, silver birch, silver bullet, or silver rado, but bali only slithering nubiles and dry music.) Maybe the wood had some unknown acid in it, or was glazed or burnt by the milling process. Or like you say the stuff was applied at a temperature above or below the 5 degree window the rubber requires. Tests HAD to have been done BEFOR the gunk was used on the schooner!!! Man, what a pain!
Silver Bali is good stuff , looks like teak , costs less and eaiser to work and takes to epoxy too .
Combination of errors;
weather too cold
too wet or humid
Wood wasn't cured enough ( it was still shrinking )
Seams weren't filled bottom to top
Seams weren't shaped right
You know the drill;
" not enough time to do it right but plenty of time to do it over."
So Mike,
You guys went to twopart sulfide?
Used some of that nasty stuff from Smith&Co once and a few years later it pulled away from both sides of the teak. Must have done something wrong. But it had finished up perfect and after sanding developed that nice concave seam.
The seam should be primed with something first, no doubt.
If the USGov had teak decks you better believe by now there would be a seam filler you could apply below freezing and underwater.
want HELP, goop gurus
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whose polysulfide....?
Sis-440
