+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 28

Thread: Balancing Weight in Forepeak

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626

    Balancing Weight in Forepeak

    I noticed on one of the other threads that Ivar put 60# of lead weight in the forepeak. Has anyone else mounted weights up forward to better balance the boat fore and aft?

    In Ivar's case he put 60# of lead, unattached. Is there any reason why a loose weight is not OK. Can the smaller lead weight (80#) be put up forward? Where do you get 60# of lead? Is there a substance for that purpose that is more readily available (Tube sand perhaps)?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz
    Posts
    190
    Theis, I too noticed the comment about lead in the bow and the first question that came to my mind was why.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,311
    I believe the reason was to get the boat to ride on its lines, rather than stern down.

    The extra lead added to Maika'i is in the form of three or four long and narrow pigs glassed in under the sole in front of the raised head location under the V-berth. Sure no chance of it mooving around

    The lead was added to the boat in the 1960's, and as I've been told, had something to do with a now obsolete (off shore?) measurement rule.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626
    Here is the issue that I am posing.

    1) The Ariel has a near constant weather helm. My mast is set a little forward of vertical, when there are no people in the cockpit (but the OB is installed)

    2) The center of balance of the Ariel is at the forwardmost part of the keel, approximately under the chain plates/maststep.

    3) When loaded with all the deadweights that sail my puppy, I believe the additional 3,000 lbs (a couple hundred of that is the people - the rest is the beer), causes the stern to go down, the bow to lift, causing an aft rake in the mast - causing the weather helm.

    4) It is recognized that the motor well, which is normally high and dry, gets very wet, indicating that as the Ariel moves, the stern is pushing down, at least somewhat (enough to change the angle of the mast.

    THEREFORE, would it not be a good idea to put an 80# bag of sand in the forepeak to at least help offset the weight of all that beer. Because it is so far forward, it should have pretty good leverage, perhaps offsetting 200-300 lbs in the cockpit.

    Any thoughts?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz
    Posts
    190
    Bill. I would be interested to hear more on the MORC rule that you speak of. My experience has been trying to keep the bow up off shore is more valuable than weighting it down. We have found that with a weighted bow we tend to dive into the waves before we go over them. Also with a heavy bow we created a larger bow wave that would come back and spank us on the quarter which would load up the helm. Anyone else experience this?

    In terms of performance if racing other Ariels I have seen the negative results if one did add weight to the bow which tells me that the Ariel prefers to sail with her nose up.

    And I guess my last point is that I have seen dozens of pictures of Ariels/Commanders under sail, including many in the forum, and most seem to be sailing on their lines. But then who knows they all could have weighted bows.

    I am not closed mined on this but I do have an opinion based on my experience and looking at the design of the hull. I would be interested to hear other views. .....ed

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Posts
    45
    I sail my Ariel with a friend who has a Bristol 27 - another Alberg design. We both complain about the stern squat in these boats. I am about to add weight into the upper bilge from the middle of the forepeak step to the forward end of the forward access hole in the sole. I'll test the results before I glass in about 100# of lead (tire weights, sand, and epoxy slurry).
    My theory is that getting the nose down even a bit will not only reduce the irritating slosh in the outboard well, but help the boat be a tiny bit more close winded.
    I may be completely wrong. I'll keep you posted on the results.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz
    Posts
    190
    Theis, You are starting to sound more like a racer every time we talk. Be careful, you may get a reputation.

    I see your point and to some level I agree. If the motor well is dragging there is a good chance you are carrying to much beer. I would offer a couple of points that might make a difference. I wrote earlier about what I have found with a heavy bow, But I agree the boats have to sail on their lines. If you are anything like me (and most other boat owners) there is likely years of stuff that have accumulated on the boat. I often have to ask myself do I really need to carry six sets of sheets and enough dock line to tie up a battle ship.

    My point is before I start putting more weight in the little yacht I would think about getting some stuff off (but not the BEER!). You might find that the whole hull could be raised up out of the water.

    If the well is taking on water that will most likely weight down the stern but making the boat sit lower in the water doesn't seem like the answer to me. I hear people speak/complain about weather helm often and must confess that I don't have the same complaint. But that is a whole other discussion.....ed

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
    Posts
    1,823
    I've always understoood that you want to keep weight out of the ends of the boat for the reasons Ed stated, and also to prevent "hobby-horsing."

    There is only so much you can do to get excess weight out of the stern.

    You're stuck with the outboard engine you've got, even if its heavy.

    I've drilled holes in the keel void at the stern looking for trapped water, but only found a few ounces.

    I've also cut open the floor of the motor well and scraped out the wet styrofoam. The styrofoam, even wet, was very light. The area under the floor is not very big either.

    If you're obsessed with this issue you could try these options first. (But only because water trapped in the boat is detrimental for other reasons).

    At least on the Commander, the only place to put weight forward of the mast is in the forepeak or the water tank. I've opted to keep the water tank at least half full because I think the boat was designed to ride that way. She seems to sit on her lines.

    Frankly, I don't think 60, 80 or 100 lbs up front is going to help or hurt matters too much one way or the other. Still, I would hesitate to put any more weight in the boat at the ends.

    The problem of excess beer weight is easily solved.
    Attached Images  
    Last edited by commanderpete; 03-12-2003 at 10:39 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
    Posts
    1,823
    Here is a picture of my friend's 1964 Rhodes.

    Looks a little down towards the stern. The water tank was empty.
    Attached Images  

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Portsmouth, Virginia
    Posts
    142

    Stern Squat

    I had thought about moving the two blocks of lead in the bilge on my Commander forward to raise the stern a little but have changed my mind. My boat does not have or ever did have a water tank. I plan on adding a water tank soon and maybe the boat was designed for the extra weight of the water forward. Question... are the two blocks of lead weight in the bilge placed there so as to be moved forward or aft to balance the boat?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,311
    Not really. They represent the weight of the missing Atomic 4.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Portsmouth, Virginia
    Posts
    142
    Bill, too bad, in our modern do everything design age it would make sense to be able to balance the boat fore and aft by simply moving these lead weights on rails in the bilge; however, as I recall these wieghts are fiberglassed to the hull. Mike Goodwin showed me that he had removed the ones in his boat. What good are these weights? Should I remove them altogether or would the boat too ride high?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,311
    The racing fleet here has removed the lead pigs. (Sold mine for $20.) Removal makes the boats a bit livelier -- surprising what a couple hundred pounds of lead down low will do.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz
    Posts
    190
    Robert, My guess is you are asking something that would be the equivalent of what shade of blue is the water. We each have our own answer. But my two cents would be to remove them. As far as I know the only reason the lead pigs were added was to help equal the weight of the outboard models in relationship to the inboard. It was an ok concept but leave it to those racers to find "loop holes" when they found out they could move the lead around.

    As far as "livelier" goes I have been sailing with out the lead for so long I could not make a comparison. The key point to me was that the boats were designed as they are and IMHO 2k+ of lead at the bottom of the keel is enough to drag around.....ed

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626
    My test as to the effect of the weights, placed in the forward of the bilge adjacent to the balance point, is that they do add SUBSTANTIAL stability. At that location, being the fulcrum, they have nothing to do with fore and aft balance.

    Back to topic, I would not place the lead in the forepeak because I am concerned about the "point" contact of the corners or edges of a metal rectangle wearing through or cracking the hull should the boat drop off a wave. Perhaps with substantial padding it might work, but with a bag of sand, or tube sand that is packed in poly, I don't have the point contact of a rigid metalthat can rub/ pound a hole in the hull.

    The picture of the Rhodes is very similiar to the way Solsken sets. As for getting rid of gear, the stuff in the stern I have is not that heavy, and is mandatory safety gear - needed to be readily accessible - safety is always first.

    As for the stern lazarette, I have mine filled with two inner tubes under the floor, so that it doesn't hold much water.

    Ed, how is your mast set, when the boat is sitting at dock with no one on board, and the OB in? Do you have the mast raked forward? Is it set so that when you are in the boat it is vertical, as opposed to being vertical when the boat is empty?

    As for the bow plowing, that has only been a concern once, when the bow wave was lapping the gunwale. What a reach! WOW! I was worried the bow might hook and I could pitch pole.

    You mentioned Ed that I sound like more and more like a racer. I am the racer that everyone wants to have join the fleet. I am the racing fleet's dream boat. When I race, no one else has to finish last. I am so proficient, I don't even have to know what the course is, unless I get so far behind that there are no other boats in sight.

    But, back to racing and the boat balance, one of the possible speed benefits of having the stern in the water is that it increases the water line, hence the boat goes faster. I don't know.

    From what I am hearing, this summer is going to be a case of trying a bag of sand and seeing if it works better. We can all report back.
    Last edited by Theis; 03-12-2003 at 08:40 PM.

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. Forepeak Cabinsole
    By Mike Goodwin in forum Technical
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-22-2002, 07:25 PM
  2. Ariel weight?
    By dmp in forum Technical
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-11-2002, 04:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts