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Thread: para anchor vs series drogue

  1. #1
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    para anchor vs series drogue

    I should state that I am a series drogue maker, in Melbourne. I think there is too much dissinformation published about para anchors, because they are a powerfull advertising group of manufacturers. Because of this yachting magazines do not evaluate their performance worts and all. For more information go to my site www.seriesdrogue.com including the US Coast Guard report

    Series drogue, para anchor, heaving to, lying ahull or running off are options for survival in storm conditions, which is best? Only you can evaluate your boats handling peculiarities and use this knowledge to choose the right storm tactics suited to your yacht.

    Heaving to, Lying ahull, or Running off
    “It is important to note that most storms, even severe storms, do not create dangerous breaking waves. Sailors who survive such storms may conclude that the tactics they employ, such as heaving to, lying ahull or running off, are adequate to prevent capsize. This is a serious mistake. There is very compelling evidence to show that while a well found boat will survive a storm in non-breaking waves, none of the above tactics will prevent capsize in a breaking wave strike.”
    U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-20-87 sec1-1


    Sea anchors and Para anchors
    The sellers of para anchors promote these items as bullet proof protection in storm survival situations, we question the veracity of this description.

    Para anchor positives
    A vessel disabled, in danger of closing with land or other hazards can hold station, until the problem is fixed or help arrives.

    “In moderate weather, before seas begin to break dangerously, parachute anchors are effective at helping boats hold station. Many of the users whom we have interviewed speak well of their experiences in moderate gale conditions”
    Steve Dashew

    Fishing boats with hulls designed to sit parallel to anchor lines, sit well to a para anchor, they are widely used by squid fishers, to hold station while fishing.

    Para anchors - what the experts say
    Many yachts yaw and sail at anchor, and even more on para anchors, this phenomenon is called shearing. If a wave hits the bow in this shear cycle the boat can be forced backwards, resulting in :-


    ____i)Damage to rudder.
    ____ii)Breaking rode.
    ____iii)Rolling over.
    ____iv)Forcing water thru exhaust system under extreme pressure and into the engine.
    ____v) All of the above


    In the trough of a wave/swell the para anchor rode goes slack, the yacht will commence to yaw wanting to lie ahull, leaving it partially or totally beam to sea with the possibility of being knocked flat or rolled.

    “Even with a large sea anchor the bow of a modern yacht will tend to yaw away from the wind when the towline goes slack as it will when the boat passes through the trough of the wave. For these reasons the use of a sea anchor deployed from the bow is not recommended”
    U.S. Coast Guard Report No CG-D-20-87 sec 6-6

    Anecdotal evidence - para-anchors in storms
    “Para anchor users interviewed all find their parachute anchors extremely difficult to retrieve in other than moderate wind and sea.
    A major factor regarding both personal comfort and one’s use of parachute anchors in breaking seas is the boat’s tendency to sail at anchor. As stated earlier, if your boat sails on the hook, the odds are it will sail around even more fiercely while lying to a parachute in the middle of the ocean. This oscillation creates extreme loads, presents the bow at a wide and dangerous angle to the sea, and is extremely uncomfortable.
    There are two ways around this. One is some form of riding sail or backstaysail as we’ve discussed. The other is to bridle the parachute off the bow, as advocated by the Pardeys. The bridle is used with a reefed trysail or deeply reefed main to increase resistance to rolling. A key feature of this approach for the Pardeys is the creation of a slick off their keel, which - theoretically, at least - calms the seas. This is a major safety issue, because without the slick, the boat is now lying at an angle of 50 deg or 60 deg to breaking crests, quite vulnerable to a knockdown or worse. I have no doubt that the Pardey’s Seraffyn did in fact create a slick to windward in its day, but I have never seen this myself, and I have interviewed only one other sailor who claims to have been able to crate this type of beneficial slick and have it work as advertised.
    In furiously breaking seas, the situation worsens dramatically. An excellent example of problems encountered comes from the experience of the Burman family aboard Freya, a Stan Huntington-designed, heavy displacement, full-keel 46-footer. Last spring, Freya was caught in a major storm off the coast of New Zealand. Rather than close with a lee shore in difficult conditions, Bruce Burman decided to deploy his 18-foot Para-Tech sea anchor. This was attached to a 450 foot piece of ¾ New England Ropes three-strand nylon. The rode was new, right off the spol, had never before been used, and was the size recommended for this vessel.
    Dry breaking strength on the rode was 16,700 pounds (wet, about 20 percent less). The Para-Tech anchor was good for roughly 10,000 pounds of load, and then would start to blow panels, which in turn would relieve the load on the rode. The rode was attached to a heavy bronze cleat, fastened with four 5/16’’ stainless steel bolts, recently replaced and beefed up with a backing-plate under the deck. The four bolts and cleat would probably bear 12,000 pounds or more of load. Bruce Burman eased the rode out a couple of feet every two hours. The rode went through a bronze chock, and no sign of chafe was observed.
    During the first evening of the storm, Freya was knocked down and rolled while lying to the parachute anchor. Because the wind had developed from a compression zone between vigorous high and low-pressure systems, the wind direction was relatively steady. Data from the helicopter pilot who eventually picked up the Burman family confirmed that there were no crossing seas from wind shifts or other conflicting storm systems.
    Either during the knockdown or just before it, the rode parted about 10 feet off the bow in what appeared to be a tension failure. While the failure was unfortunate for the Burman family, it provides a valuable data window for the rest of us - an opportunity to get a handle on the loads involved”.
    Steve Dashew




    U.S. Coast Guard conclusions - series drogue vs para anchor.
    “This paper documents the investigation of the use of drogues/sea anchors to prevent small sailing yacht capsize in breaking seas. The following conclusions were reached:

    i) _____In many and possibly most cases, a properly engineered drogue can prevent breaking wave capsizing.
    ii)___._ For fin keel sailing yachts the drogue/sea anchor should be deployed from the stern, not the bow.
    iii) ____A series type drogue provides significant advantages over a cone or parachute type drogue/sea anchor.
    iv) ____A full-scale series drogue demonstrated satisfactory handling and durability characteristics under simulated storm conditions and in actual breaking wave conditions.
    v) ___._A recommended design specification including design loads is presented for cone, parachute and series type drogues”.

    U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-2087 sec 7-0


    Series Drogues and boat design


    “With a series drogue deployed, a well-designed and properly constructed fibreglass boat should be capable of riding through a Fastnet type storm with no structural damage. Model tests indicate that the loads on the hull and rigging in a breaking wave strike should not be excessive.
    Many sailors are reluctant to deploy a drogue from the stern because they fear that the boat may suffer structural damage if the breaking wave strikes the flat transom, the cockpit and the companionway doors. The model tests do not show this to be a serious problem. The boat is accelerated up to wave speed and the velocity of the breaking crest is not high relative to the boat. The stern is actually more buoyant than the bow, and will rise with the wave. However, the boat may be swept from the stern. The cockpit may fill and moving water may strike the companionway doors. The structural strength of the transom, the cockpit floor and seat, and the companionway doors should be checked at a loading corresponding to a water jet velocity of approximately 15 ft./sec.
    When a boat is riding to a series drogue no action is required of the crew. The cockpit may not be habitable and the crew should remain in the cabin with the companionway closed. In a severe wave strike the linear and angular acceleration of the boat may be high. Safety straps designed for a load of at least 4g should be provided for crew restraint. All heavy objects in the cabin should be firmly secured for negative accelerations and drawers and lockers should be provided with latches or ties which will not open even with significant distortion of the hull structure”.
    U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-20-87 sec 6-4

    regards
    Bryan Glover

  2. #2
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    Drouges vs para-anchors, some comments

    Nicely constructed site. Very interesting info. What a niche business to be in!
    Should we get some comments going? Some of us are offshore bound and safety is on our minds. Haven't 'studied' the site - just took a look....

    One interesting thing mentioned is that statistically ANY boat under 50 feet WILL be tumbled.

    One page recommends that chainplates be installed on the quarters instead of the usual cleats and chocks on deck because of once-in-a-lifetime loads that may be experienced. (Once read a cruiser recommending that the lines be led aft from the samson post to the stern.) This is, of course, for deploying a drogue off the stern. Persuasive arguements are presented for this position - to which may be added that it is definitely safer to deploy, adjust and retrieve the device from the cockpit.

    Using a sailboat called the Winston Churchill the "Seriesdrogue" website chooses to depict the boat in thumbnails with the drouge streamed from the bow, without explanation.
    I may have missed something, but it is inconsistences like this that one applies to the product.

    The smallest drogue made by this company is rated for a vessel a little less than twice the displacement of an Ariel. I'm onboard with more is better, but need to know if some cones would have to be removed or something, to control the boat in a once-in-a-lifetime situation. I guess the ticket would be around $300, and I guess we'ld order from them. so there may be customs fees and shipping that would jack the price.

    Ordering blind and foreign off the internet you takes your chances on quality.

    I would like to see the device deployed in actual photos. And they ought to consult with C'pete for more appropriate hair-raising photos of sailboats in distress rather than tankers having a good-ole-time crashing into big ones.
    I would have liked a more custom approach to our particular web site with information directly related to small boats.

    Persuasive though! Maybe they have a group rate?
    Last edited by ebb; 03-27-2005 at 02:41 PM.

  3. #3
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    Something to note here is that an Ace Sails on the East Coast makes the Jordan Series Drogue ( they seem to be unavailable thru the net.) I haven't compared our 'own' with the Aussie one. Wouldn't know how to begin.

    USCG did model and real time tests in 1987 on anchors and drogues to control a small boat in a storm. The series drogue, a series of small openended cones sewn end to end in a line won over the sea anchor hands down ("The series drogue can double in function as a spare anchor line and can use the boat's regular anchor as a weight. (Think I might rig it with the cone noses up!) All 90 cones weigh only four pounds.") The CG considered para anchors dangerous in its test. My understanding.

    A sea-anchor holds the bow into waves and wind. A drogue can't do this. A sea-anchor virtually stops the boat, a drogue is not designed to do this. Using a not powerful enough drogue or too small a sea anchor off the bow could cause the boat to ride beam on to the waves and over you go. Lying ahull seems to be dangerous as well. Depends on boat. Getting the sea-anchor in sync with on coming waves and keeping it there is difficult if not impossible. Violent motion and chaff are often reported. Some find it satisfactory including the Pardeys.
    Drogues and series drogues allow the boat to continue to run in a controled manner still steering and sailing. They are deployed over the stern. Depending on the drogue, boat, and storm, 1, 2, 3, 4 nm an hour are reported. The Jordan series drogue proved easy to set and retrieve. No complaints for this type are recorded. Drogues evidently work well because some part of the series is usually in the water mitigating the jerking of stopping and going, often violent with a sea anchor.

    There is a time when approaching land or a situation where the need "to park the boat until the storm passes" is necessary. It would be wise to also carry one for this purpose. Para-tech recommends a 12' parachute ($775) for an A/C length boat. Practical Sailor's fave is the Fiorentino Para Anchor which is well built and heavy duty, also made on the East Coast, I believe. Pardey's use a type of chute different than the Para-tech to make a slick with their boat, like that, a different method - Paratech has a disclaimer on their site.

    Adlard Coles in Heavy Weather Sailing, not recommending one method over another, did say that running was the safest decision.

    I found the USCG report here:
    http://www.sailrite.com/drogue_information.htm
    There is much anecdotal info at 'Cruiser's FAQ by Daschew' - 'Live Aboard Forum' - 'Cruising Discussion Group from SSCA' - 'Cruising Sailor's Forum'. The study above seems to be the only one around and MUST be read by anybody going offshore.

    (I think there is a clue here that Sailrite makes a kit that you can sew together to keep from being bored
    as you 'sail beyond the sunset and bathes of all the western stars.')
    Last edited by ebb; 03-28-2005 at 04:20 PM.

  4. #4
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    Dear Ebb,
    I have been working on and testing series drogues for small boats, on my 28 ft yacht, 3000kg displacement, going in and out Port Phillip Heads streaming a 50 and 75 cone drogues, the heads always have serious waves, when the wind gets up a bit. We had a strong wind warning, 30 knots and 20 to 25 foot waves. The test was as follows. I went out the heads at slack water, waited one hour, and came in with the flood tide, which runs at 7 knots, I motored in at 2800 revs which lifted the across the bottom speed to 8.5 knots or 1.5 k across the water with 75 cones, and 9 knots, 2 knots across the water with the 50 cones, which kept the drogue line tight. The heads, also called the rip, is a bit like the columbia river bar, a good place for breaking waves. I had 2 safety lines attaching me to the boat, holding me firmly, the motion was not that wild, boat speed picked up with each wave pass and slowed when it had passed, waves were vertical walls, and breaking, very little water came aboard. The sensation was a bit like being attached to a bunge cord. This was a crude test, but I think the 75 cone drogue would be ok for a 2000kg displacement yacht, in a once in a lifetime storm.
    I have used a 100 cone drogue in a storm in Bass Strait 2 years ago, with a happy ending.
    To answer some of your questions. Australia has a free trade agreement with the U.S.
    so there is no duty on Australian goods. The rope I use is manufactured in Melbourne by a small company called Cobra Ropes, the U.S. Air Force, also buys rope from this same small Melbourne company, the rip cord on ejector seats. The cones are made from rip stop nylon sail cloth 1.5 oz, and hemd top and bottom, ace does not hem their cones.
    The prices on the site include shipping by air mail. I am happy to quote on smaller drogues email bryan@seriesdrogue.com
    regards
    Bryan
    Last edited by Bryan Glover; 03-28-2005 at 05:57 AM.

  5. #5
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    Dear ebb
    You state:- Using a sailboat called the Winston Churchill the "Seriesdrogue" website chooses to depict the boat in thumbnails with the drouge streamed from the bow, without explanation.
    I may have missed something, but it is inconsistences like this that one applies to the product.
    I dont know why you say this, Don Jordans designers notes when evaluating the loss of winston churchill during the 1998 sydney - hobart race has a full and complete explanation, and recommended the drogue to be deployed from the stern. it says nothing about deploying from the bow. Have another look
    regards
    Bryan

  6. #6
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    Sorry Bryan, Often go too rapidly through stuff, will say that the thumb nail did not read well.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    First, the USCG report is on Bryan's web site.
    Second, as I understand it, when you order online you get the cones, a latch hook, instructions, and it's postage free.

    That means you get to tailor and design your own drogue using line of your own choosing and pocketbook.

    You'll need about 150' of 3strand nylon (I can't imagine going under 5/8s.
    You'll need to supply about 350', for 100 cones, of double braid nylon.
    And some kind of weight for the end. An anchor?
    Ordering an uncut 500' spool would be the way to go, if you get a great deal and if double braid can be substituted for the leader and bridle. But if that is extra insurance, why not? 500 feet of line plus the cones for a made up drogue sounds like a considerable stowage issue, doesn't it?

    I might do as suggested and mount extra chainplates on the quarters under the toerail proud of the transom dedicated for the drogue. That would also keep the deck free. The deck back there on a cruiser isn't going to be very free. Chaffing would not be the prime problem with shackles and eyes. Tho the attachments would be out of immediate sight. Wonder how you'd adjust the thing in use with the sheet OR the halyard winches??? Longer plates would spread the sheer load. Beefing up the fairly thin topsides in that area of 338 could be done without a whole lot of grief. Later.
    Last edited by ebb; 03-28-2005 at 11:27 AM.

  7. #7
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    Dear ebb
    A drogue consisting of 75 cones you would require 300 ft of 1/2 inch line. 5/8 if you wish. I will supply 75 cones and latch hook to Pearson Ariel members for usd 180.00.
    regards
    Bryan
    Attached Images  

  8. #8
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    180 shemolians!

    Such a deal!
    Spools come in 600'. A spool of Jamestown's best gold and white nylon double braid 1/2" goes for $475. WM sells white and gold for $1.09 per foot. Half inch line easy on the hands. You need to replace your dock lines, anchor line. Right? And make yerself a new set of brakes.

  9. #9
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    So, Bryan, some technical Q's for you -

    I'd guess you can use a (lightweight) 1.5oz cloth because the loads involved on individual cones are relatively small? What kind of thread are you using, anything special, or overlarge? The nylon webbing/ribbon - why nylon, instead of say polypro - is there a reason for the material choice? Do you put a hoop inside the leading edge of the cones, or do they stay open sufficiently without the use of that or similar?

    I've been thinking for a while that a series drogue is a much better tool than the para anchors, your site justifies my thinking. Thanks.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  10. #10
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    Dear Epiphany,
    Don Jordan spent so many years working on the drogue, he was chief aeronautical engineer at boeing, and retired when the Jumbo jet came into service, I made the decision to make the drogue to his exact specifications. I use american made fabric and sail thead. The loads on individual cones is relativly small. for very large yachts I use 2oz rip stop. There are no hoops inside the leading edge, yes they stay open.
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  11. #11
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    Looks good and seems like a great price, Bryan. I think your webbing is what is known as "grosgrain ribbon" over here. It's light, but strong stuff. The Blaze Orange color fabric is a good idea, too.

    I've read many times of old salts towing warps when running under bare poles in hellacious conditions. These warps have been rope, chain, a combo of the two, and some have even slung additional drag-inducing materials onto the warps in an effort to slow the boat (like auto tires and anchors). It seems the series drogue is more of a technological extension of that idea than it is an improvement on the para-anchor idea. Will have to do some rereading about streaming warps again. The series drogue seems like it would be much easier to deploy, handle, and retrieve than several sets of long line/chain.

    And at any rate, it's a lot easier to stow 75 flat fabric cones than it is a few car tires, so there's one obvious plus. Also, the cones won't make black scuff marks on the locker walls.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  12. #12
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    Bryan,
    That closeup shows a very impressive and strongly made cone. It has convinced me.

    What is the natural disposition of the drogue off the stern? IE could it hang straight down and get into the propeller of the outboard? Is this an issue?

    Is the weight at the end actually an anchor? What would you recommend for the Ariel? What's ideal?

    Without the weight on the end, perhaps the drogue would be something very useful to hang on to in a man overboard situation!? A singlehander here on the site trails a polypropylene trip line to pull a rope ladder attached to the lifelines down into the water.

    Wonder if the drogue could be rigged in the pushpit in a sunbrella bag ready to go, except for the weight? A drogue in a non-storm situation might help slow the boat down if it's sailing without the skipper?

  13. #13
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    Dear Ebb
    The drogue always trails the boat, if there was no wind at all then yes it would simply hang down. but you only use it when there is wind, Chain or a lead weight 10 to 15kg would be ample, ships anchor if you have nothing else.
    The drogue would still slow the boat under sail or power without a weight attached, to about 1,5knots. So not so good as man overboard equipment.
    Why would a boat be sailing without the skipper?? are you winding me up.
    regards
    Bryan

  14. #14
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    Bryan -

    An idea for you - contact Phil Herring at sailboatowners.com, and see about advertising your drogues on his websites. He gets a lot of traffic, from daysailors to cruisers.

    PS - The boat would be sailing without the skipper because he fell overboard.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  15. #15
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    A drogue is a series drag

    Bryan, Yeah, I was wondering if thought could be given to another reason to have the apparatus other than extreme ocean survival.

    At the same time I was wondering if, instead of the ubiquitous where-the-hell-did-I-put-it bag that has to be extracted from the bottom of a locker, if the gear could already be attached to the pushpit in a dedicated cover. I imagine it would be a sunbrella package that would live permanently above the taffrail on the stern.

    Out of the bag on top the eye at the end of the drogue would be exposed. For storm use, a weight would be attached. For everyday cruising the seriesdrogue would have a float attached. A tug on a trip line and it would be released from its velcroed bag.

    Since the idea is to trail the drogue to save the ship, it popped into my brain (my girlfren sez I am Al Z. Heimers) that trailing a drogue might also save the blathering skipper. AND SLOW THE BOAT DOWN as you write.
    Seems like there's good stuff to grab on to, instead of a knotted rope. Since the gear requires dedicated chainplates (persuaded by your advice) off the rear, rapid deployment and dual purposing to my way of thinking follows.

    Since a drogue is a drogue maybe a few foot loops could be introduced into the line. Maybe double pass knotting would be mandated. Dual use could/might also perk the interest of coastal or freshwater or bay sailors. Even couples with kids. Remember, the USCG has already suggested a alternate use for the drogue.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________
    A needless Alexandrine ends the song That, like a wounded snake, drags its slow length along. ------Pope
    Last edited by ebb; 03-29-2005 at 09:48 AM.

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