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Thread: The album of Ariel #422

  1. #106
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    Looking forward, you can see to port the first of the large compartments I am putting into the vberth area. I'd been thinking to leave a 20-24" wide "channel" inbetween matching cabinets up there, and having that channel serve as a bunk if ever needed. Now, and instead, the cabinet to port will have a 6' long, 24" wide flat surface on top which can be used as the same. Going this route should provide more storage (which equals more closed space for float), better round-the-body airflow whenever it is being slept on, and a nice wide working surface.
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    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  2. #107
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    A vertical composition showing what it looks like from the companionway/cockpit.
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    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  3. #108
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    And last, looking from starboard at the forward port storage compartment. Later today I'll be making and installing the last 2 internal dividers, and then putting the top onto it.

    We have a hurricane headed this way, it looks like. I'll be busting hump to get in the strongback prior to evacuating, if I have to.
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    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  4. #109
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    Kurt,
    That asymetric open 'look' is great, ain't it!
    Can understand your quest for a flatter beam. Wonder what you will come up with? If you are keeping the original lockers, would support s.s. 'pipes' at the corners be in the plan? Maybe inset a little (set off the corners outboard) the eye might accept them more as 'cosmetic' than structural - and keep that wonderful openness.

    If I hadn't already committed 338 to its deep internal beam - your photos show implicitly how important no break in the cabin/deck line really is - I would seriously consider putting the beam ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE CABIN!!!
    If one could engineer a flat beam and turn the corners down to the deck (where interior knees would pick up the load and take it to the hull) I think, with rounded Albergian corners, such a beam would hardly be noticed. Well. not exactly. But I'd mock up a model in foam to find out.

    The eliptical round of the inside cabin is really great and helps to give the interior a larger feeling. One of the huge problems with the Ariel is gaining stowage. It looks like you are succeeding.

    Never mentioned with enclosed 'watertite' lockers is the issue of moisture and mold. And actual watertightness in the event of a surprise holing or knock-down. How do you gasket the lids and doors? On another thread, just recalled Yves Galinas' A-30, that survived a 360 - and the reason it did, we might suppose, is that he isolated the four bulkheads. Opening up the interior makes locker waterproofing moist important. I'm here waiting for your calculations on the cubics!!!
    Last edited by ebb; 08-28-2006 at 07:51 AM.

  5. #110
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    Ebb -

    I ***love*** the openness. Before, this boat didn't seem any bigger than my old Com-Pac 23. Now, I know it is, and it feels "freer". It also seems a little cooler - I think that air is circulating better, being wide open like this.

    Funny you should mention an exterior deck beam. When I was gazing at the underside of the strongback-less deck for the first time, I started giving thought to that space between the inner and outer deck skin...

    Could be that it would be possible to remove the outer skin and coring in a wide configuration like I've been thinking, and replace it with something structurally stronger. If that structure could spread load across the cabin trunk top out to the sides, and was supported on the underside by the vertical poles, it would work nicely, and I don't think would have to be very visually noticeable at all from the exterior. On the inside, you could have an unbroken span. It would be pretty easy to bed a metal plate between many layers of glass inside that space. If, as you propose, that metal plate wrapped around and conformed to the whole cabin top shape, and was thick enough for the stresses, it might not even need any interior support. Bliss!

    Hmmm... Gad, you got me started again...

    Re: cubics and related such:

    Moisture and mold: I don't think it will be much of a problem. Why? Because these are relatively small boats. There just _aren't_ any lockers which remain closed long enough for it to develop to any appreciable degree. I've found that I am constantly diving into every storage bin I have, because I only have aboard that which I *need*. Maybe on a larger boat lockers sit unopened long enough for mildew to be an issue, because you have places to put infrequently used "stuff" and forget about it, but I haven't found that to be the case on this boat or my last one. Even if I don't use something much, it still gets regular exposure to fresh air because it sits near something which I do use on a regular basis, and so its locker gets ventilated. Keep in mind that where I am, we have 6+ months of the year with temps regularly exceeding 80*, and humidity rarely drops below 70% - prime mildew country, and it just hasn't been a problem at all. The only place I've seen mildew develop is on the inside of the hull. The lockers will be finished with a slick surface on the inside, to make cleanup the matter of a few simple wipes.

    Flotation: I'm picking it up wherever I can.

    Right now, for this temporary structure of compartments, I am using scrap plywood I have gathered up (recycling ), but for the end product, I'll be using sheet foam instead. I'm leaning towards polyurethane foam and polyester resins, not epoxy, mostly because of price, and also because of ease-of-use (i'm very familiar with PU/PE construction). For the cabinet structures, they'll be a slab of foam skinned with glass, cut and used just like plywood, after they've cured hard (laid up outside of boat). For install, the side which faces into the boat may get a layer of formica or luan for impact resistance. Just the structure of the compartments I will be building in, made in this manner, will net several cubic feet of positive flotation, and be lighter than wood to boot.

    I'll be stuffing glassed-over foam into all odd and difficult to reach places. I've been wanting to insulate the hull anyway, so I plan to put 2" of foam up against the hull throughout the interior of the boat - this will bring the inner wall of the hull level with the stringer which runs along it, and will give 8+ cubic feet of flotation by itself. I think I can get 10-15cu/ft into the cockpit lockers and under-cockpit area. I'm going to use bladders for water tanks, I may lay them into compartments where all the extra space around the bladder is foamed. The storage compartments up in the v-berth will give about 25 cu/ft of closed space. In the end, the closed-off and foamed spaces will total more than 65 cu/ft, because some of them will be partially filled with heavier-than-water substances.

    The individual compartment lids will sit on gasketed lips, with pre-drilled holes for watertightly securing them to the compartment. All these holes will be the same size, so that they'll use the same size fasteners. Fasteners and a manual tool to put them in place quickly will be stowed handy in case they are needed, so that completely closing off a compartment where water is coming in can be done with minimal fuss. At sea, the compartments will stay closed, partly fastened already - not too hard to access if needed, easy to secure against ingress. I can pull out several days worth of stores, to be stowed in an easy-access compartment, every few days/as needed - kind of like "reefing early".
    Last edited by epiphany; 08-28-2006 at 09:59 AM.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  6. #111
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    Thumbs up X ternal beam

    IF

    The top core would be merely a surgery to remove the foam and replace with solid.

    That's a pretty good curve to the top and a structure incorporating the side strut supports with the cross-beam into a single piece could be made very strong. And essentially non-deflecting. Too bad we don't have a resident engineer on the board! This may be a perfect project for carbon fiber. Or titanium (just kidding).

    If one could take a bit of intrusion into the interior maybe laying in a tubular sectioned curve by cutting the top of the cabin completely out (and reconnecting it back up would get the bridge. Or putting 1/2 of the section outside and the other half in. It would create an deeper bump which might not be the clean look you want.

    One could 'play' with the outside beam, designing in rigidity, by incorporating a tabernacle. Like a partial truss. I feel that interior posts and pipe that are built off the furniture are secondary. True support would be continuous (contiguous) to some load spreading floor/rib/contraption actually on the keel and hull.

    Just noticed (working on the port V-berth tank in 338) that I doubled up on the tank end that is on the remnant of the compression bulkhead. End supports for the compression beam end on the V-berth as Pearson had it - but instead of depending on screws alone coming in thru the plywood, now there is SOME more solid support (1 1/2" plus frp) from the hull under those struts. Again, I feel you have to consider non continuous support as ACTIVE. Meaning: expect movement to occur.

    External beam sounds too good to be true. Has it been too easy for builders to steal space from the accomadation to support the mast? Maybe it is time....
    Last edited by ebb; 08-29-2006 at 07:30 AM.

  7. #112
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    A More Simple Option?

    Hey Kurt, have you considered a simple Commander-like compression post under the mast?

    A couple of options come to mind with this setup:

    1. You could bring the half wall on the port side out to it. It would give you some interesting storage and counter possibilities in the forward portion of the cabin. For the starboard side, with all the surgery you're doing, you could revise or remove the hanging locker (or move it to somewhere more useful, like near the companionway). Then your access forward would be to starboard of the compression post. It would leave the starboard settee portion of your v-berth nice and open, and, I daresay, open up the interior even more.

    2. Have your access forward to port of the post and shorten your port storage area for access forward. With this setup, you could even move your head to starboard to the foot of the v-berth, right behind the bulkhead. This would give at least a tiny bit of privacy for mixed company and more leg room in the v-berth area.
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  8. #113
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    Giving the above suggestions much thought as I prepare for a visit from Ernesto...

    Ebb - Here's a thought to twist yer noodle: Whaddabout if the outer skin were removed, and a 2" beam of wood or composite were placed _both inside *and* out_?

    Mike - I have considered it before, and the idea keeps coming back to me as the KISS way to get the mostest with the leastest. Thanks for the reminder, I'm rolling it around my brainpan again now...

    Like this thought which just occurred: Why not make that support *removeable*? If the beam were made strong enough to support the (tensioned) rig at rest/anchor without deflecting, then the mast support could be removed when not needed, yet also be put in place prior to leaving port. That way it would only be 'in the way' at sea, where extra handholds are a boon anyway. If it had threaded bases, and was carefully made to the proper length, it could be tensioned up against the beam once in place.




    OK - Gotta go get ready for Ernesto...
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  9. #114
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    Kurt/Ernesto, guys,
    Must admit to surprising self with the CUT OUT WHOLE CABINTOP /INSTALL BEAM /RECONNECT. That's what I meant, anyway. It allows a more substantial beam which my prejudice goes for. It's not an impossible scenario.

    If the job was a frp layup it would be easy (and absolutely necessary) to key the cabin top right back into the new beam. The idea means that the internal truss part of the beam (if it can be called that) can use the whole depth of the beam (3 - 3 1/2") for stiffness. Maybe design it so it humps up outside as well as in. The mast would stand on it.

    I can see the arch done this way, but I would not cut open the cabin sides. The side compression struts seem just as important as the beam to me but they don't have to have the same depth or thickness. Well, of course, maybe they do, I no engineer. If possible it would be smart to run this by one, tho. All interior, but cutting back the liner for more room and to paste them in, if necessary, for the width you want.*

    If you agree with me that the side struts are necessary to support the beam even tho it is built in (I think the cabin sides should be beefed up to eliminate any bulging, or flex and the stuts anchored as far down in the boat as they can go.) then they could be constructed first and the box-form for the beam layup made to connect them as part of the beam layup. They should be very stiff, imco, to resist any torsioning of the bridge, changing of shape, that rig and mast pressure could produce.

    Then, your keepers, the extra supports, pipes, whatever could be removed for convenience when the sails are not flying.
    Then again, they may be totally unnecessary. That arch is less than 4' across - it should be a piece of cake to make a rigid curve that will take 2 1/2 sponberg tons of point load. H m m m m m . That IS a lot to ask.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________
    * The cabin sides on the Ariel are flat, maybe around 1/8"+ thick layup. Tho the front curves so nicely around and also the sweet transition of sides to top - and is therefore a strong shape - the flat sides seem vulnerable to me to being deflected. I can't imagine how mast forces could do it, but anything is possible. Beam supports coming down the cabin sides as 338 has and being part of the remaining bulkhead under the deck ought to keep the sides from moving. They are kind of like arms and have a full lapjoint with the beam ends. If I did it over and became convinced a glass or carbon structure could be made strong enough (and perhaps it could be by tabbing and incorporating it totally into the cabin) I would do it. Because it is consistant with and a logical extension of the Ariel's monocque construction.
    That wood beam is a left over from the past.
    Last edited by ebb; 08-30-2006 at 04:46 PM.

  10. #115
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    Mold: I think it's been mentioned by someone before, but I'm planning on having moldicide mixed into the paint when I redo the interiors of the lockers and cabin.

    Flotation: I like your idea for getting every ounce of extra flotation on board with the glassed in foam.
    With the recore, the whole foam sandwich has been on my mind a lot. I've been thinking I'll have some Corecell left over and wondering what I might be able to make using the same method - perhaps a little dink?

    Quote Originally Posted by epiphany
    Mike - I have considered it before, and the idea keeps coming back to me as the KISS way to get the mostest with the leastest.
    I'm a big fan of KISS (not the band). I've been thinking the compression post will someday be the key to adding an enclosed head...
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  11. #116
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    Lightbulb

    Coming back from the boat today, I experienced one of those instant visons you get once in a while, in this case a vivid picture of a channel across the cabin where the mast would be. A single very live snapshot. That's all I saw. Exciting, huh?

    Anyway it was a very heavy epoxy/glass green fairly shallow curved affair with shadows at the ends that makes me think now that they curved down and had some kind of attachment with the interior. My tangible feeling was that it is a drop in. Not done in place. It seemed to be just sitting waiting to be worked in.

    Surmise (assuming the image was, shall we say, sent on some legitimate spirit channel) that something was definitely missing. IE the guts in this fiberglass channel. The obvious rest of it. By an extension of the first image it's obvious that the channel is meant to have a wide top put over it that has the same heavy section, probably an even heavier top and a number of 1/4" ribs inside. The whole thing bonded together.
    Last edited by ebb; 08-30-2006 at 05:55 PM.

  12. #117
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    Back-n-forth, backnforth...backnforthbacknforth...

    I've been going round and round on what to make the beam of and how to construct it, and composites have won out in the end.

    Right now I have 2 pieces of 1" thick foam cut to fit the outer edges of the beam area, sitting in place and defining the space needed, while I look and ponder. They are 2.5" in the vertical dimension, and the for'd edge to the after is 8". I'm going to do the "box" construction I drew up several posts back, with approx 1/4" of glass between each foam layer.

    At 2.5", it doesn't noticeably 'intrude' into the open feeling of the cabin as I have it, so I will probably stick to that dimension. I'll probably taper them down somewhat on the verticals where the beam meets the cabin trunk, perhaps to 1" of protrusion.

    Ebb - I gave much thought to doing the external beam concept, but figure that I will leave that mod for someone else to try.

    Mike - A friend made a great suggestion to me the other day. He's the guy who works in composites. Once again I was bouncing the idea of the foam-cored, glass-skinned homemade 'plywich' off of him. Big dilemma there is the amount of $$$ I would have to spend on 1) epoxy resin if I used pink/blue polystyrene foam, or 2) the difficulty and expense of finding suitable thickness polyurethane foam if using polyester resins. Plus, there would be a lot of work simply in laying up the panels themselves, and then sanding, getting them flat and true enough that they'll look decent.

    He suggested instead to bond pink/blue foam to a 1/4" plywood using a simple but appropriate adhesive, and cut panels from that. It can then be affixed into the boat with, at least on the big surfaces, a simple layer or two of 6 oz glass and polyester resin. Brilliant! Sure, epoxy would be better, and I will use that in structural areas (like the beam), but this way I can have a cheap, easily shapeable yet tough foam-cored structure for the cabinetry below.

    I'll be making a trip up to the bigbox hardware store soon in order to confirm pricing, but it should result in less time, money, and hassle to use his idea. The only 'drawback' I can see is that the panels will be maybe 3/8" thicker than I had thought they would, which is no issue at all, really, since it is more thickness of a material significantly lighter than water.

    I'm glad to have found a way to use polyester resins for this. Not just because of expense, but also due to the facts that I'll have less risk of becoming sensitized to those compounds, and mostly due to the fact that I have slung so much polyester over the years that I am most comfortable using it.

    And afterall, this boat is made of it, and is still doing just fine after 40 years...
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
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    Small boats, long distances...

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by epiphany View Post
    A friend made a great suggestion to me the other day. ...He suggested instead to bond pink/blue foam to a 1/4" plywood using a simple but appropriate adhesive, and cut panels from that.
    Nice! Thanks for the update. I'm sure you'll be posting pictures soon, eh?
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  14. #119
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    Never-seen-before boat parts

    Mike - Later this week, after I purchase the materials, I will be making up the first of my foam/plywood panels, I'll photo document that when it happens. I've been bouncing the idea off of everyone I know who might have input, and so far all have agreed that it should work wonderfully. I hope we're all right on that account...

    Oh - our first good cold snap of the year has made me realize that I could use some insulation on the hull, so I also plan to go ahead and start installing the 2"-thick layer of foam against the hull in the main cabin area (above settee level), probably also towards the end of the week.

    Todays 'of interest':

    I did some cuttin' on the boat this AM. Since I'll be supporting the mast from underneath, I needed to know what structure was in place at the small step-up into the vberth (where the mast support will rest), and I have also wanted to open up the floor area in the v-berth for inspection, with an eye towards eventually cramming some of my positive-flotation foam in there, since I anticipated it would be too small for any real stowage.

    The area is a little larger than I expected, so I am not sure what use I will put it to just yet, but here it is, exposed at last for contemplation.

    Warning: work-safe pictures follow...

    This shows the cut-out.
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    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  15. #120
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    Nice bit of grime in there, eh? Be glad I took the pic *after* vacuuming. There is a small, non-draining depression evident, I would assume at the forward upper edge of the encapsulated lead. I will fill the depression in with foam (glassed over) so that it drains properly.

    You can see an old water stain on the hull just a couple of inches below the plywood, which is the same level as the main cabin floorboards. It appears as if someone had a water problem sometime in the past 40 years, one not repeated, thankfully...

    I also found a receipt in there, wet and dirty in that small depression (along with various other grunge). It came from a company in Maryland, and is dated 1979. It appears to be for labor on a "heat control valv" (sic), so I don't think it is Ariel related. If it is, I plan to turn that sucker *up* when I find it. But whatever it was, it cost $28.37 to have done.

    OK, here's what it looks like looking forward from down inside...
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    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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