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Thread: The album of Ariel #422

  1. #136
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    ...and last, a hole.
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    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  2. #137
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    A few things to note -

    After bulkhead of the wanter tank area was skewed somewhat (I haven't found anything built here that *isn't* skewed, though, so that's not unusual... ).

    The tank was bone dry and appears in fine shape.

    In the last pic, the 3 tank keys shown were all found *under* the tank.

    The outline directions in the manual are good, tank came out with no problem. But it was not glassed in at all, just setting there.

    I made the long cuts with a skilsaw, and finished the corners with a jigsaw. Plenty of room between the blades and the hull per the directions. Not a very long job at all.

    It looks like if a tank were made integral to the hull in this same location, it would hold a lot more water.

    More grey-colored inner hull is evident. With resin drips over it from when the plywood was tabbed in, so whatever this mystery color is, it was installed by Pearson, and has held up really well.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  3. #138
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    Ariel forensics

    Sounds like you can use a little help
    from Sidle and Grissom. Dr Robbins
    with his kit of anatomy saws would
    be mighty helpful too. My vic, and
    some others in the past, have that
    mysterious blue which remains quite
    un ex plain ed

  4. #139
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    The port-side dinette remains, is in use daily, and is quite the cats meow, and so has earned a keeper-spot in the final plan. It is sleep-able, but - a couple weeks experience have shown that it is rather nicer to have a horizontal pad which doesn't need setting up when the eyes get droopy.

    This, with mulling over flotation equations, and fiddling with the interior, took me down other lanes of thought, so 'tis the v-berth where I have been sleeping, and will do so when not at sea.

    I slept on 4" thick cushions on top of 11" high plastic storage bins placed in the v-berth area while I tried this theory out. Worked well, except the side-deck has too much proximity when one is lying on their, well, side. A few days ago I quicky-built in a berth at an 8" height, and that has proven much more comfy, so the entire v-berth area will be elevated approx. 8" above the original level when finished. Under the cushions will be lockers with gasketed, sealable lids. Going with the center pole for mast support.

    Starboard side hanging locker is coming out, and the whole counter and cabinetry along there will be shifted forward into that space. One of the buggers which has been plaguing me is what to do with the space in the extreme aft corners of the settee area. Hard to get to, tucked under the side deck and forward cockpit seat corner. Have been planning on removing the under-companionway stairs and sink, opening that area up and as noted before in this too-long thread, using a ladder for access to/from deck. Another bugger has been the porta-potti, which I plan to keep in lieu of a head and the associated plumbing. So.... I'm going to try for a small enclosed head/hanging wet locker to starboard of the companionway, potti on a slide out-shelf. If they can do it in a Flicka...

    Here's a drawing to help visualize some of this.
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    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  5. #140
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    Make 'er float, Scotty

    Here's more-or-less where I'll be putting foam and sealed lockers in order to make this boat float in case the sea gets in. Blue lines represent 1" thick foam panels with luan plywood skins, skinned and tabbed in with glass to seal it all completely. Solid blue areas will be solid foam, glassed in. Anchor locker is getting split in two horizontally, the area where the rode will lie will be sealed off from the boats interior, and will drain directly overboard a la Geoff's "Uhuru" and Frank/Adam/Howards #50.

    I'll be reducing the area where water can lie within the boat, nearly filling all bilge areas and sump with foam - my thinking is that if there is seawater aboard, I wanna know about it, and get it overboard. Also, less space for seawater means more space for floaty foam.

    Same for under-bunk/locker areas; basically, wherever there is a V formed against the hull, I'll put a foam floor in to make the bottom level at least partly.

    Also, I have been playing with 3" thick piece of test foam directly against the hull, seeing how much *usable* area I lose with that thickness. It ain't much. If I can go with 3" thick from the stringer down, all the way through the boat, that will give me 48cu/ft of the the estimated 55-60cu/ft needed to float the boat if she gets holed.
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    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  6. #141
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    Nice Kurt! Looking forward to seeing the in-progress pictures. A lot to be learned from your well thought-out and tried ideas. Looking good! Rock on, my man!
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  7. #142
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    Thanks Mike!

    Yesterday I tore out the hanging locker, moved my 'galley' forward using that area (also making the countertop much wider than it has been), and used the aft wall of the old hanging locker to establish the forward wall of the new mini-head/hanging locker/utility closet. It works! It's not very large, so I don't think it is a solution for everybody, but it will be nice to have a spot right at the companionway to hang wet foulies in, or, in the unlikely chance that I can trick a woman aboard , a place where she'll be able to have her privacy. Or me mine, I guess...

    I think I'll call it "the WC", like the Brits do.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
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    Small boats, long distances...

  8. #143
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    heads up

    G'mornin Kurt,
    and a happy renovative '07.
    I have your cad drawings on the kitchen cork walls - for inspiration!
    Give us one on the WC (water closet), OK?
    Head and heads (Brits) refers to the dump placed in the fo'c'sl of a ship.
    Since yer moving the head aft, perhaps a more shippy term would be WL, for water locker?
    Still appropriate for a portpottie, correct?
    I like the locker's primary use being for wet gear! It's a real problem in a minimalist cruiser.
    Last edited by ebb; 01-08-2007 at 06:43 AM.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by epiphany View Post
    Here's more-or-less where I'll be putting foam and sealed lockers in order to make this boat float in case the sea gets in.



    Also, I have been playing with 3" thick piece of test foam directly against the hull, seeing how much *usable* area I lose with that thickness. It ain't much. If I can go with 3" thick from the stringer down, all the way through the boat, that will give me 48cu/ft of the the estimated 55-60cu/ft needed to float the boat if she gets holed.
    Kurt, let me offer a different opinion on your flotation idea.

    1. It will be a huge PIA to put foam in those places, especially sheet foam.

    2. It will be expensive to put in that pour in place stuff.

    3. It is unlikely that an Ariel will get holed in such a way that you will want to stay on the boat. Think about this: What scenario would have to happen for an Ariel to get holed? What is the max speed of an Ariel under any condition...5.5 knots or so? How thick is the hull... 3/4" or more? If your Ariel is taking enough of a bashing to get holed, you are likely not going to want to stay there for it. The only candidates in my mind are a lee-shore of jagged rocks, fast moving freighters in the middle of the ocean, and those 100-mph cigarrette boats with alcoholic-induced accidents/collisions. With jagged rocks, just go ashore. With a frieghter, it will tear the boat up in a million pieces, so the floatation will not be any use. With the drunks, take your chances, your are as more likely to be injured by the accident than to worry about your boat sinking.

    3.a. If you already sealed off the anchor locker, that is going to be your most bang-for-your-buck. That is the most vulnerable part, the front. That is the part that runs into things like containers, other boats, bouys, etc.

    4. Even if it does float after getting holed, why do you want to save the hull? All equipment will be emersed and likely trash: engine, electronics, personal effects, everything. Why do you want to save that stuff? And it's not as if the boat will float that high in the water, likely it will be like the containers we hear about, nearly nuetrally bouyant and floating with just inches exposed. It's not as if you can really use the boat in that condition.

    5. A good 3-person life-raft is probably cheaper and less frustrating than any floatation-addition-project.

    6. In a small boat, the space taken by the foam is going to be "expensive" in terms of usability. Better to install the air-bag-floatation things. They stay small until called upon.

    7.Do many other long-distance ocean voyagers do this mod? I am thinking about the father-son duel that went around Cape Horn in the 80's in a 24-footer. They were from Connecticut if I recall, and built the boat themselves from a kit. Their book is really good and might give some ideas about what is needed for blue-water ocean passages.

    ---not raining on your parade, just giving you something to think about, and maybe save you some time so you can get to making passages sooner.---
    -km
    aka, "sell out"
    S/V Beyond the Sea
    C&C 35 mkIII

  10. #145
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    AH HAH! Heat's ON!
    This is Kurt's page, so we'll let him respond to Keith's views, most of which I agree to, viz 338, another cruiser in the making.

    But not Point 4. Feel very strongly that the boat is essentially a spaceship. If something happens to it in the Indian Ocean, say, and it fills with water and it doesn't sink, there are still more life saving resources if you stay with it than on a liferaft. A liferaft supposes RESCUE. That may not be the correct assumption.

    Thinking about making an Ariel unsinkable is a good exercise. I personally would not give up an inch of volume to foam fill except for a 1/2" of ensolite on the whole upper part of the hull for insulation. I think svATOM (Baldwin) has the right idea in making lockers and stowage space 'water-resistant'. I would not use or trust any foaminplace urethane. (There is an out-gassing issue and it is NOT closed cell.)

    Nothing can be said about being totally smashed to smithereens, we better have some sort of alternative aboard. But total disaster may cancel out any one of those: liferaft, dinghy, pfd.
    How long would you live in an emersion suit anyway? Better to think about making the boat unsinkable and repairable.

    Let's explore the ways....
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
    Kurt, how you figure 60 cu ft? When you multiply 60 times 64 (wt cu ft water) the total is 3840# displaced.) Will that float the boat?
    Last edited by ebb; 01-08-2007 at 07:47 AM.

  11. #146
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    RE: Kieth's #7 above: My Old Man and the Sea - good read.
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  12. #147
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    This isn't "Heat", this is just Discussion! And I am glad for it, it helps me crystallize my thinking and in some cases gives me new food for thought.

    ------------------------------------Answers-------------------------

    1. It will be a huge PIA to put foam in those places, especially sheet foam.
    Not really! I already have access to the hull from basically everywhere, and am putting in the first layer today.

    2. It will be expensive to put in that pour in place stuff.
    If I use this stuff, it will only be in small areas between sheet foam edges. As it is open cell, if I use it it will only be in areas which will be glassed over so that no water can get in (and stay in).

    3. It is unlikely that an Ariel will get holed in such a way that you will want to stay on the boat.
    3.a. If you already sealed off the anchor locker, that is going to be your most bang-for-your-buck. That is the most vulnerable part, the front. That is the part that runs into things like containers, other boats, bouys, etc.
    I realize that there isn't much out there which will actually 'punch a hole' in an Ariel hull. Maybe if you just happened to strike the corner of a floating shipping container at the right angle, that would do it. But how water gets in won't really matter too much, if it is getting in. That's what the +flotation is for: Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Agreed about the anchor locker/stem, but in the frame of the just quoted philosophy, I am paying particular attention to any part of the hull which when moved through the water would be diverting it away from flowing straight back (or: any part of the hull viewable when you stand in front of the boat). Also I keep in mind that it is rare for an Ariel to sail unheeled, and so areas above the at-rest waterline are probably just as likely to take an impact as those below it.

    4. Even if it does float after getting holed, why do you want to save the hull? (combined with)
    5. A good 3-person life-raft is probably cheaper and less frustrating than any floatation-addition-project.
    The idea is that the boat will be it's own liferaft, floating with *some* freeboard, even if only 8-10". If it can do that, then it can be fixed enough to be bailed out and used to gain the safety of land for further repair.
    Electronics etc in a survival situation are not usually _needed_, so theoretically as long as I am alive and have the basics, and a way to get back to shore, I am much better off than if I were floating around in a rubber raft with a small bag of 'survival tools', hoping that someone finds me before too much time passes. I will have basic electronics (VHF, GPS, flashlights, etc) in handheld waterproof versions which can take exposure to water. I will not have an EPIRB, because I believe this: since I am the person who is taking the risk to go to sea, I don't want anyone to risk their life to try and save mine. I have no children, noone besides myself who is dependent upon me; rescuers likely do. So I assume the mantle of responsibility now, before ever leaving shore, to see that I am "self insured" when it comes to my own survival. Of course, YMMV, and that is up to you, just as this decision is up to me.
    Most everything will be stowed in top-loaded watertight lockers inside the boat, with the exception of what I (prior to setting out) decide is necessary to repair a hole in the hull, a "fix it" kit. Should the worst happen, I would try to fix it, and then bail the boat out. I will have at least one HIGH capacity manual bilge pump onboard. After bailing, a large part of what was in those lockers will hopefully be fine. If not, then I will still have more stuff to "MacGyver" with.
    I think that positive flotation is also probably *much* cheaper - materials will total less than US$500, and time would be spent refitting the boat anyway, even if I weren't going the +float route. That said, this isn't about saving money, it's about what I think is the best way for me to continue sailing as long as possible, even if I encounter the worst situation imaginable for a sailor.

    6. In a small boat, the space taken by the foam is going to be "expensive" in terms of usability. Better to install the air-bag-floatation things. They stay small until called upon.
    I am a minimalist when it comes to "things", and so require less storage space than if I were otherwise. (Except maybe for books, but they float, and can be dried out - lol). Also, I have learned from backpacking and kayaking - sports which have much in common with cruising and living aboard a small boat - that before setting out, you will wind up "needing" as much stuff as you have space for, yet once on the road, you find that much that was "needed" goes unused. Compared to my backpacks (1.15-3.76 cu/ft) or my kayak (5.78 cu/ft), the Ariel carries a ton of stuff. I actually revel in the "large" space for stuff I have on my Ariel! I am not 'normal' in this, and people are as a rule somewhat amazed that I feel this way, especially when they come aboard. But I have a place to sleep, sit, cook, and stand, and it's all out of the rain, with no setup needed - and that is almost luxurious to me. Sure, she'll be loaded down when I leave for long passages, but mostly with food and water.
    As far as float bags - I did do some serious thinking about them, and checked out all the products I could find on the market to see what they offered, but eventually came to the conclusion that tanks and tubes and bags can all leak, can all fail at what they are intended to do. Foam cannot - it just sits there, holding air all the time. I like that simplicity, and in the context of what I am doing, it makes more sense.

    7.Do many other long-distance ocean voyagers do this mod?
    I am not aware of any statistics about that, though I would assume that most don't. Most probably rely on liferafts (or dinghies which can serve as one, but that is a much smaller number), as that way is, as you said, much easier, involving less thought and construction. My objections to depending on a liferaft are already stated here, my boat is too small to stow a liferaft-capable dinghy on deck (besides which, I want my decks clear), and I don't want to have to deal with keeping a dinghy-in-tow during a storm.
    I do know these things: just a few days ago I was aboard a 52' aluminum sloop, hull/deck made in France, fitted out by the 4X-transAtlantic owner in Canada, and he'd made it to have positive flotation, so there may be more of them than is reported, too.
    My friend Neal Peterson, 2x OSTAR and 2x BOC racer who has rounded all the Capes, knows and approves of what I am trying to do. He's been in situations where his boat was about to sink, or would have, had he not acted quickly and properly. He hand-pumped his boat 20 minutes of every hour around the clock 2/3 or so of the way across the Atlantic after being hit by a Russian freighter. He understands what I am trying to do, and it is stories like his among others which are part of the reason I am doing it this way.
    There is a European company named "Etap" which builds well-regarded boats that have positive flotation from the factory. I am sure that it is much more expensive to construct a boat that way, a cost which would have to be passed on to the buyer, and I would bet that price alone is *the* significant factor in why fewer boats are made this way.

    ---not raining on your parade, just giving you something to think about, and maybe save you some time so you can get to making passages sooner.---
    I don't think that at all! I appreciate your taking the time to discuss it with me.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebb View Post
    Kurt, how you figure 60 cu ft? When you multiply 60 times 64 (wt cu ft water) the total is 3840# displaced.) Will that float the boat?
    Ebb -

    60-65 cu/ft is what I am going for in the amount of foam alone.

    Jim Baldwin is an extremely thorough person, one who I admire for many reasons. If you read his "IN SEARCH OF THE UNSINKABLE BOAT" article, his figures come out to ~.89 cu/ft of foam per 100 lbs displacement to keep his boat floating with decks awash. Add 10% to that (for ease, and safety, and perhaps differences in the amounts of materials which make up an Ariel vs a Triton), and you have 1 cu/ft per 100 lbs displacement. Thus, my ballpark figure of 60-65 cu/ft for an Ariel loaded with 1,000-1,500 lbs of stores and gear. I will also test this*.

    Like Jim (and I have discussed this with him on the phone), I will have watertight lockers which will provide the additional flotation needed to keep the decks from being awash, ideally to actually float them slightly above the surface. The lockers will also serve to keep water from flooding into the boats interior, since they will directly cover probably well over 75% of the area of the hull which can be holed. They will serve as small sealed crash bulkheads, water which gets past the hull and enters them will be able to go no farther, or, if it does, at a vastly reduced rate of flow.

    The way I am building in the interior of the boat also makes it so that any water which does get inside will be confined to a small narrow space until it is 3' deep or so. This will keep it from sloshing side to side, making the boat roll-y. With an interior which makes any water very noticeable and confines it to a large degree, and a high capacity bilge pump to get it out, I should be able to deal with all but total, unstoppable calamity.

    If that happens, well, it must just be "My Time To Go", and there isn't much I can do about *that*.

    ------------------

    *Once I get it all built in, I will sink my boat.



    Yes, you read that right. Out in the Bay, on a calm summer day and over a shallow sandbar, with a *very* high capacity pump to do both the filling and the emptying, I am going to see with my own eyes if and how she rides when full of water. That will be a fun and interesting day.

    I'll measure and double- and triple-check everything beforehand, but if it all seems right, then that's the last logical step. And of course I'll post *those* pictures.

    PS - "I agree, "My Old Man and The Sea" was a great book. I read it the summer after my father died. Bummer, that, and it made the tale even more poignant.
    Last edited by epiphany; 01-08-2007 at 10:09 AM.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  14. #149
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    A PPS:

    What I am doing isn't all that hard, or crazy even, I don't think. Nor is it impulsive. What I mean is this: Look at the work that pretty much anyone doing a major refit puts into their boat. Since I knew I would be doing the work anyway, it just makes sense to add a little more in, if the benefits could be so great...

    Living aboard for 1.75 years so far, while finding my own 'optimal design' for what and where, I have had much time to consider all of this as a supplement to actually trying out the varied and different ideas I have had for the interior arrangement.

    It all kind of fits together.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  15. #150
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    I may need enlightenment.

    Believe the .89 figure is not right and could be inverted.

    If I have a 6000# boat and I use the 58# reserve bouyancy per 100# I come up with 103 cu ft of foam needed to suspend the boat in water. I would need more than that to float it with the decks awash. And more than that even to have the boat floating high enough to try to repair it.

    Maybe the .89 should be 1.11 as a minimum.


    I, of course, agree with Baldwin on everything he says.
    Open top bulkheads like the one for the head will not float the boat if water goes over them. If that incident where he was holed by a fishingboat had been below the waterline, we might be reading another story.

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