The album of Ariel #422

[mbd]

Hey Kurt, have you considered a simple Commander-like compression post under the mast?

A couple of options come to mind with this setup:

1. You could bring the half wall on the port side out to it. It would give you some interesting storage and counter possibilities in the forward portion of the cabin. For the starboard side, with all the surgery you're doing, you could revise or remove the hanging locker (or move it to somewhere more useful, like near the companionway). Then your access forward would be to starboard of the compression post. It would leave the starboard settee portion of your v-berth nice and open, and, I daresay, open up the interior even more.

2. Have your access forward to port of the post and shorten your port storage area for access forward. With this setup, you could even move your head to starboard to the foot of the v-berth, right behind the bulkhead. This would give at least a tiny bit of privacy for mixed company and more leg room in the v-berth area.

[CapnK]

Giving the above suggestions much thought as I prepare for a visit from Ernesto...

Ebb - Here's a thought to twist yer noodle: Whaddabout if the outer skin were removed, and a 2" beam of wood or composite were placed _both inside *and* out_?

Mike - I have considered it before, and the idea keeps coming back to me as the KISS way to get the mostest with the leastest. Thanks for the reminder, I'm rolling it around my brainpan again now...

Like this thought which just occurred: Why not make that support *removeable*? If the beam were made strong enough to support the (tensioned) rig at rest/anchor without deflecting, then the mast support could be removed when not needed, yet also be put in place prior to leaving port. That way it would only be 'in the way' at sea, where extra handholds are a boon anyway. If it had threaded bases, and was carefully made to the proper length, it could be tensioned up against the beam once in place.




OK - Gotta go get ready for Ernesto...

[ebb]

Kurt/Ernesto, guys,
Must admit to surprising self with the CUT OUT WHOLE CABINTOP /INSTALL BEAM /RECONNECT. That's what I meant, anyway. It allows a more substantial beam which my prejudice goes for. It's not an impossible scenario.

If the job was a frp layup it would be easy (and absolutely necessary) to key the cabin top right back into the new beam. The idea means that the internal truss part of the beam (if it can be called that) can use the whole depth of the beam (3 - 3 1/2") for stiffness. Maybe design it so it humps up outside as well as in. The mast would stand on it.

I can see the arch done this way, but I would not cut open the cabin sides. The side compression struts seem just as important as the beam to me but they don't have to have the same depth or thickness. Well, of course, maybe they do, I no engineer. If possible it would be smart to run this by one, tho. All interior, but cutting back the liner for more room and to paste them in, if necessary, for the width you want.*

If you agree with me that the side struts are necessary to support the beam even tho it is built in (I think the cabin sides should be beefed up to eliminate any bulging, or flex and the stuts anchored as far down in the boat as they can go.) then they could be constructed first and the box-form for the beam layup made to connect them as part of the beam layup. They should be very stiff, imco, to resist any torsioning of the bridge, changing of shape, that rig and mast pressure could produce.

Then, your keepers, the extra supports, pipes, whatever could be removed for convenience when the sails are not flying.
Then again, they may be totally unnecessary. That arch is less than 4' across - it should be a piece of cake to make a rigid curve that will take 2 1/2 sponberg tons of point load. H m m m m m . That IS a lot to ask.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
* The cabin sides on the Ariel are flat, maybe around 1/8"+ thick layup. Tho the front curves so nicely around and also the sweet transition of sides to top - and is therefore a strong shape - the flat sides seem vulnerable to me to being deflected. I can't imagine how mast forces could do it, but anything is possible. Beam supports coming down the cabin sides as 338 has and being part of the remaining bulkhead under the deck ought to keep the sides from moving. They are kind of like arms and have a full lapjoint with the beam ends. If I did it over and became convinced a glass or carbon structure could be made strong enough (and perhaps it could be by tabbing and incorporating it totally into the cabin) I would do it. Because it is consistant with and a logical extension of the Ariel's monocque construction.
That wood beam is a left over from the past.

[mbd]

Mold: I think it's been mentioned by someone before, but I'm planning on having moldicide mixed into the paint when I redo the interiors of the lockers and cabin.

Flotation: I like your idea for getting every ounce of extra flotation on board with the glassed in foam.
With the recore, the whole foam sandwich has been on my mind a lot. I've been thinking I'll have some Corecell left over and wondering what I might be able to make using the same method - perhaps a little dink?

Mike - I have considered it before, and the idea keeps coming back to me as the KISS way to get the mostest with the leastest.

I'm a big fan of KISS (not the band). I've been thinking the compression post will someday be the key to adding an enclosed head...

[ebb]

Coming back from the boat today, I experienced one of those instant visons you get once in a while, in this case a vivid picture of a channel across the cabin where the mast would be. A single very live snapshot. That's all I saw. Exciting, huh?

Anyway it was a very heavy epoxy/glass green fairly shallow curved affair with shadows at the ends that makes me think now that they curved down and had some kind of attachment with the interior. My tangible feeling was that it is a drop in. Not done in place. It seemed to be just sitting waiting to be worked in.

Surmise (assuming the image was, shall we say, sent on some legitimate spirit channel) that something was definitely missing. IE the guts in this fiberglass channel. The obvious rest of it. By an extension of the first image it's obvious that the channel is meant to have a wide top put over it that has the same heavy section, probably an even heavier top and a number of 1/4" ribs inside. The whole thing bonded together.

[CapnK]

Back-n-forth, backnforth...backnforthbacknforth...

I've been going round and round on what to make the beam of and how to construct it, and composites have won out in the end.

Right now I have 2 pieces of 1" thick foam cut to fit the outer edges of the beam area, sitting in place and defining the space needed, while I look and ponder. They are 2.5" in the vertical dimension, and the for'd edge to the after is 8". I'm going to do the "box" construction I drew up several posts back, with approx 1/4" of glass between each foam layer.

At 2.5", it doesn't noticeably 'intrude' into the open feeling of the cabin as I have it, so I will probably stick to that dimension. I'll probably taper them down somewhat on the verticals where the beam meets the cabin trunk, perhaps to 1" of protrusion.

Ebb - I gave much thought to doing the external beam concept, but figure that I will leave that mod for someone else to try.

Mike - A friend made a great suggestion to me the other day. He's the guy who works in composites. Once again I was bouncing the idea of the foam-cored, glass-skinned homemade 'plywich' off of him. Big dilemma there is the amount of $$$ I would have to spend on 1) epoxy resin if I used pink/blue polystyrene foam, or 2) the difficulty and expense of finding suitable thickness polyurethane foam if using polyester resins. Plus, there would be a lot of work simply in laying up the panels themselves, and then sanding, getting them flat and true enough that they'll look decent.

He suggested instead to bond pink/blue foam to a 1/4" plywood using a simple but appropriate adhesive, and cut panels from that. It can then be affixed into the boat with, at least on the big surfaces, a simple layer or two of 6 oz glass and polyester resin. Brilliant! Sure, epoxy would be better, and I will use that in structural areas (like the beam), but this way I can have a cheap, easily shapeable yet tough foam-cored structure for the cabinetry below.

I'll be making a trip up to the bigbox hardware store soon in order to confirm pricing, but it should result in less time, money, and hassle to use his idea. The only 'drawback' I can see is that the panels will be maybe 3/8" thicker than I had thought they would, which is no issue at all, really, since it is more thickness of a material significantly lighter than water.

I'm glad to have found a way to use polyester resins for this. Not just because of expense, but also due to the facts that I'll have less risk of becoming sensitized to those compounds, and mostly due to the fact that I have slung so much polyester over the years that I am most comfortable using it.

And afterall, this boat is made of it, and is still doing just fine after 40 years...

[mbd]

A friend made a great suggestion to me the other day. ...He suggested instead to bond pink/blue foam to a 1/4" plywood using a simple but appropriate adhesive, and cut panels from that.

Nice! Thanks for the update. I'm sure you'll be posting pictures soon, eh?

[CapnK]

Mike - Later this week, after I purchase the materials, I will be making up the first of my foam/plywood panels, I'll photo document that when it happens. I've been bouncing the idea off of everyone I know who might have input, and so far all have agreed that it should work wonderfully. I hope we're all right on that account...

Oh - our first good cold snap of the year has made me realize that I could use some insulation on the hull, so I also plan to go ahead and start installing the 2"-thick layer of foam against the hull in the main cabin area (above settee level), probably also towards the end of the week.

Todays 'of interest':

I did some cuttin' on the boat this AM. Since I'll be supporting the mast from underneath, I needed to know what structure was in place at the small step-up into the vberth (where the mast support will rest), and I have also wanted to open up the floor area in the v-berth for inspection, with an eye towards eventually cramming some of my positive-flotation foam in there, since I anticipated it would be too small for any real stowage.

The area is a little larger than I expected, so I am not sure what use I will put it to just yet, but here it is, exposed at last for contemplation.

Warning: work-safe pictures follow...

This shows the cut-out.