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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
    Posts
    821

    Question Headsails

    What is the biggest genny anyone flies on an Ariel or Commander?
    Anyone gone with a 180 or 200?
    How about chutes?
    I don't care about class racing rules, I'm thinking more nitro dragster .

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,311

    Big Sail - Big Mistake

    A cautionary tale about BIG headsails and the wind.

    The race began about 1:00 PM and as the afternoon progressed, the wind began picking up. Although we seemed to be sailing ok, we kept falling behind the fleet. Finally, we dragged across the finish line pretty close to last. To emphasize our condition, a few moments before we crossed the line we met the committee boat picking up the last of the marks! This finish was as bad as the one we had at our first outing last year when the genoa track was improperly placed.

    Watching the boats we usually stay ahead of begin sailing away from us, I kept wondering what we were doing wrong. Our sail trim appeared to be the same as before and we were pointing well, but we were just not moving. Maybe I should have had the bottom scrubbed?

    At the post race gathering, we learned why we were so slow. The old "Bay Fox," Ernie Rideout, said that we were falling behind because we were "overpowered." We should have taken down the 155% genoa and used the working jib. Pathfinder (Ernie’s boat) went with their 120% genoa and Cat Walk, the other Ariel, used a working jib. And they both walked away from us.

    I'm not sure about the wind range for head sails, but it sure appears that in anything over 12 to 15 knots and you should not be using a 150. I assume a 120 will cover the 12 to 18 knot range (but I may be on the high side, Ed probably has a better estimate). If the wind is under 9 knots, maybe you could "effectively" use a larger headsail.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Posts
    724

    Question Less is more.....?

    Ted Brewer is in Good Old Boat this month, with his 'Thoughts on sail plans'.

    He is mainly advocating the 3/4 rig, but one of his points is that the CCA rule drove boats of our vintage to carry a higher ratio of headsail to main, and that this was a less efficient sail plan. The evidence he cites is the 5.5m class in the 60's where he says the rules were different and all boats eventually '"flew the minimum-size jib and maximum headsail as any other distribution of sail area resulted in a losing boat."

    Kinda makes sense, that the overlap would be less efficient.

    I wonder if a partially furled 155 could ever be faster then an unfurled 155?
    Last edited by c_amos; 03-03-2005 at 05:51 PM. Reason: edited to cause to be less unclear(er) :)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
    Posts
    821
    In the summer , where I sail , we seldom see more than 9knots of wind .
    I do a lot of beam reaching in 7 to 8kts for 10 miles then turn around and reach back . I borrowed a 175 and flew it in 7 knots and by the GPS I was doing nearly 6knots. With the class genny I was doing only 4 at best.
    I'm sure I couldn't carry it to weather in a breeze and don't want to try, but it was fun in light air.
    The guys I race with , we make lots of headsail changes and have a shelf full of silver . We fly a 190 on the C&C 40 .

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
    Posts
    1,100
    Mike, have you given any thought to an asymetrical spinaker? Even though they are usually mentioned in conjunction with a bow sprit they work with just a simple tack I hear. Hood has their version called an MPG (multi-purpose genoa) that I've been eyeballing.

    Bill, it's funny you should have that story to contribute. A while back I was talking with the sailmaker about headsails for 113. At that time I was leaning toward a 150 because I 'wanted the most bang for the buck'. After getting some information about our local weather and looking up info on Pearson Ariels, the sail maker, let's call him Joe, suggested a 130%. His reasoning was, if over powered with a 150 you can only put about five turns on the furler before you start to lose too much shape and then you're just over powered and going too slow on your ear. For less wind than the 130 could be flown use a MPG. At first I thought, 'yeah, just another way to clean out the bank account', but the more I read I think he really was telling the truth. He couldn't talk me out of thefull batten loose footed main though

    A 170 must be close to a asymetrical spinaker!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    upstate N.Y>
    Posts
    14

    head sail

    you have to ask yourself at any time what you are doing.Racing ,Cruising ,anchoring ,etc.Our favorite sail on board is the "120".It is the best sail on board .Not too much or to little but there .I like the 150 but we always dump it eventually for the best sail, it just points better on the Ariel, the 120. Destination is the goal . Getting there is the equation................
    Last edited by Gerry Walsh; 03-03-2005 at 08:43 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
    Posts
    821

    Big Genny

    I have a used, very big, light weight sail for a much larger boat .
    I'm going to have it cut down to a large light air reacher for the Ariel and just haven't decided on how big. I'm thinking 180 to 200 .
    I can get it cut down for a fraction of the price of a new genny or a MPG.
    If I was going to spend any major bucks on sails, it would be a new main .
    Right now I have an old main, and the 2 class sails and no more . I don't plan on racing the old gal other than a few novelty/charity races , just want to go faster in light air.
    A lot of these old design boats react well to reefing the main and sailing on with a bigger genny. They dont round up overpowered that way or if they do , put in another reef . Used to race an old Bill Tripp design that way and we have trophies to prove the point.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    11
    Can someone shed some light on the effects of different luff dimensions. It seem that masthead rigs have genoas that are hoisted nearly to the masthead yet working jibs are a couple of feet shorter in the luff.

    What happens if you have a 30.5 foot luff (instead of 28) with a 9 foot foot? Does this affect the balance? Or speed? What is the design reason for the Ariel's sail plan?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
    Posts
    1,823
    I suspect it has to do with the way sails are cut. In order to get a properly shaped triangle the luff has to be shorter for a jib.

    With a larger genoa you also might want to take advantage of the better air up high.

    You could use a taller jib, as long as its not too tall, accounting for stretch.

    This is for a hanked on jib. For a furling genoa, the luff dimension is critical, although the sail can be hoisted higher with a pennant at the bottom

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Oklahoma City
    Posts
    7

    Big jibs

    I have Commander 216. I use a J-80 150 jib. and it does great. I like Mike Goodwin's response. When the wind pipes up, the first thing I do is reef and we really go fast. The boat behaves and does not round up. We also have lots of trophies to back up the use of the jib. I hardly ever reef up through 18 knots of wind. The sheeting is right beside the cockpit. The boat came with genoa track running the full length of the cockpit. That's exactly where the genoa sheets to. About 2 feet aft of the cabin then up to the primary wench. Hope this helps.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    13
    Curious what the dimensions of a "deck-sweeper" working jib might be.
    our working jib (LP 90%) has the following dimensions

    luff 303" or 25' 3"
    leach 282" or 23' 6"
    foot 107" or 8'11"

    would this qualify? It's very beat up, and Im thinking about a new or lightly used sail for the 18-25 kt range that we seem to have every afternoon in the bay. trying to decide if these dimensions are delivering the best performance (routed to inboard jib tracks along the cabin)

    Thanks for any advice!

    -adam

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,621
    Copied this question from asimo, AFTER A 13YR SLEEP!!
    There back then is Ebb talking about getting his sails together
    and it still hasn't happened. We are trying at Spaulding in Sausalito.
    Carol Hasse is retiring !!!

    Cruising sails won't be deck sweepers, not even the Code Zero.
    Carol absolutely has to have measurements taken off a live sailboat.

    Sorry to be so vague, but sail measurements are found in the class Manual.
    So you can at least get the luff.

    There is another way, if you can't wake up the cognoscente here.
    You can take the sailplan from the Manual, take it to a copy shop,
    zoom it up to a scale like 1/2" to a foot. Waterline of 18.5 feet will be
    9 1/4" on the plan. There are other given measurements like the mast
    height/length that also can check accuracy.

    While working on the Ariel, I've found the set of plans I had made quite
    accurate..
    With a scale plan you can at least get an idea if a sail you are interested
    in might work in the rig.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,311
    If making a new set of sails for your A-C yacht, be sure to have the sail maker go to the boat to finalize any measurements.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,621
    Best advice!.

    In fact Port Townsend Sails insists on it.
    We have yet to rig the Baby Stay which will fly a storm jib.
    It also can be used for wing on wing in the trades. The
    forestay has a reefer/furler. Plenty to go wrong.

    Sails will be measured with Carol Hasse up in Washington
    on the phone with Chris G of Spaulding directing the taping
    in Sausalito.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    This may not be the place for this,

    the A-338 mast now has Tide Marine's STRONG TRACK

    installed on the new 7/8" Schaefer external T-track.
    Worried that the tear-drop profile of the mast
    would not support the Strong Track which is merely installed
    by pushing it up the Schaefer T-track in a molded
    corresponding hollow form. Haven't used it yet
    - it seems amazingly tight, one with the mast.

    Waxy carbon black material is the hardest polyethylene I ever seen.
    Last edited by ebb; 06-18-2020 at 04:55 PM.

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