The truth about the ice box.

[Westgate]

I agree it would be nice to remove the ice box but we elected not to in the name of actually making it into the water this year. I did seal up the outside access which was pretty easy (see Arthur Thread). We will use it as a "big cupboard" for food storage etc. The PO had modified the interior on the port side and built a countertop with a really nice top loading ice box. I will try and remember to get some pics next time out. That is if I can remove all the crap that in on that countertop!

[Stephan]

Hey Gentlemen,

My project is to improve my existing ice box, by adding 2 inches of insulation inside, and converting it to a refrigerator using the Norcolder ice box conversion kit I just received.
According to Don Casey, the right foam to use for the extra insulation is firm polyurethane form sheets.
Unfortulately, I cannot find polyurethane foam anywhere in the 'depot' and the other home improvement stores I tried. Does anybody know where to get this stuff?
Alternatively my question is, what IS wrong with using polystyrene foam ('styrofoam')? It's cheap and seems to insulate well in houses, and I can get it everywhere. I'm going to clad the new inside of the box anyways, so the foam will be covered...

I hope someone has some tips for me! Thanks, Stephan

[CapnK]

Stephan -

Last time I looked at the 'depot' type stores a couple years ago, the PU foam was not up in the house insulation (by the pink/blue stuff), but back in the HVAC area. The PU foam is faced with a white side and a shiny side, basically a aluminum foil glued to the foam. The foam itself is a yellowish/brown color. For some reason the name "Celotex" comes to mind. (Ah, here's a pic: http://tinyurl.com/kr79dq ).

That said, you can use EPS foam (the pink/blue or even white stuff), it will insulate fine.

I suspect Casey may have recommended PU because you can bond polyester resin to it. It might also outgas less, or something. Ebb can tell you that, I bet. But that reflective side on the Celotex will act as a radiant barrier, which will help.

[Stephan]

Great news!
Thanks epiphany. I'll report progress and my experience with the Norcold kit asap.
Have a great day everybody.
Stephan

[ebb]

Rigid polyurethane foam was/is quite available last I used it. It's nasty to shape because it is friable and the crumbs are attracted to clothes and skin.
But it came/comes with aluminum skin in various thicknesses. What happened to it?

Then there is pink and blue polystyrene that Kurt likes. Can't find THAT stuff here in CA.
Roofing suppliers should have it. So should sheet goods suppliers to contractors.
Your local lumber store?
You want CLOSED CELL RIGID BOARDSTOCK.
And it is to be preferred over urethane foam!
I personally would not use urethane foam in the closed space of the boat.
Also the foam is not truly closed cell.


If you recall CFCs were depleting our ozone layer in the '90s? Refrigerants, aerosols and blowing agents. Did the holes in the ozone over the Arctic ever close up again? Then they came out with HCFCs, just as bad.
It is the chemical blowing agents that provide much of the insulation quality to closed cell foam. They have tried to use inert nitrogen gas as a blowing agent in some foams. Have to look for them, if interested. The HCFCs stick around longer in foam than nitrogen. Besides, DOW probably has patents on them but can't patent nitrogen!
Of course it's not just the ozone but our lungs and livers.
Anyway. so that's 'outgassing'. In a closed environment: dangerous/toxic. However the icebox project will probably be sealing off added foam insulation pretty well.

Here without comment a quote from your revolving door EPA:


"Effective Jan 1, 1994, plastic foam products which contain or are manufactured with HCFCs were banned from sale or distribution into interstate commerce under Section 610 of the Clean Air Act.

Thermal insulation foam products are, however, EXEMPTED from this ban. Foam insulation products are defined as a product containing or consisting of the following foam types.
Closed cell rigid polyurethane foam.
Closed cell rigid polystyrene boardstock foam.
Closed cell rigid phenolic foam and
Closed cell rigid polyethylene foam."


Polyethylene closed cell foam also comes in a friendly bendy non-rigid form. It's a packing material and is used for yogha mats etc. It seems to be non-lethal, odorless. It's cheap. You need special glues. Epoxy doesn't stick to it at all. Solvent glue is probably lethal, maybe an method can be devised to use the foam for insulation without the glue?
I would use this stuff. Found it at TAP. I have three small 1/2" sheets of it floating around in the back of the truck. The material gets yanked, crushed, piled on - nothing happens to it, and it is as friendly as a puppy. Least lethal of all foams imco. Said to burn without producing deadly gases.

[Stephan]

Ebb,

this is great information. TAP however doesn't exist here in Chicago. I'll have to look around for a supplier to find that PE foam and glue.
Samsclub seems to sell it as huge rolls for packing purposes. Might do lots of layers of it. (it's 1/8 in). I wonder if it won't compress over time.

Thanks, Stephan

[ebb]

Stephan,
It's called ETHAFOAM (by Dow)
It exists everywhere. The white stuff is used for historical preservation. Often associated with food.
Some big deal packers will have it. Packaging suppliers. Art shippers. Cocrete/Masonry suppliers. Might find it free.
Farm supply. Pond liners.

I wouldn't use the thin stuff if I had a choice. It must come in inch sizes. maybe you can find it in the size you actually want.

It's a translucent/white resilient material that bends easy but still is stiff.
Soft stiff. Cuts easy, utility knife/serrated knife, scissors, bandsaws (controlled bevels & curves) like cutting a croissant.
Immune to most chemicals.

McMasterCarr has it but it is pretty pricey for packing material.
Which it isn't, the stuff they have - but look at their prices. It's not white either.
There are many varieties and grades. The 'packing' grade is good enough imco.
Exposed the foam has a life of 20years.
I would feel if I got the thickness I wanted it might be worth the bumph for it. Maybe.
Check out (aqueous) acrylic contact cements for sticking. Your research....
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
ULINE (uline.com) shipping suppliers sends catalogs here to the Vineyard and they are online. Look up "Plank Foam" This is packaging foam so it is quite light ie low density. Located in Chicago. and elsewhere.
1-800-958-5463.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Want to avoid shipping because UPS socks it to ya for volume. Uline's small sizes might be just the thing if you already know the dimensions of the box you're building.
Many interloggers have a flat fee for shipping.

[Stephan]

Hi All,

I wanted to quickly report on the fridge conversion unit I used.
It's called 'Norcold SCQT4407 Ice Box Conversion Unit 6.0 CF' and can be found at WM, Defender (where I bought it) and other places, just google for it. I paid around $600 for it.
Initially I was very focused on improving the insulation of my ice box before putting the unit in and let it sit on my boat unused for over a month. Since I really wanted it functional before a little cruise we did two weeks ago, I finally decided to simply put the thing in and worry about insulation later. Summer here in Chicago has been a disaster anyway.
I placed the compressor unit into the rear of the starboard locker (it's important to place it where it has good circulation), and the evaporator into the ice box (of course). I had to drill rather large holes through the box to get the copper tubing with its attached fittings through it. After attaching the copper lines to the compressor the thing ran like a charm.
After over two weeks I can say it works beautifully. When I run it on high, it actually manages to freeze things that are close to the evaporator. On a reasonable, fridge like setting, it cycles at maybe 50% on/off. Since it uses 40W when running, it uses roughly 480Wh per day. So far, my solar panels have had no problems keeping it supplied, with the help of three parallel group 24 dual purpose batteries, including light, computer etc.
As the days get shorter, the amount of solar power I will get per day will decrease, but the fridge will have to work less when temperatures drop.

So, to sum it up, this unit works well and I didn't have to buy any more ice since.

Stephan

[c_amos]

Posting from "Ariel Spirit" laying at anchor here in Clearwater.

She still has the original icebox, and I was thinking yesterday just how cool it is to be able to reach something cool from the cockpit. I really like the idea, and maybe it would work better if the weather stripping on the door were replaced....

But.

I have been aboard since last Wednesday, and have had cold food in it since Thursday. I put the first load of ice Thursday ... (20# of cubes)... Added 3 more bags Friday afternoon.

Underway all day yesterday, added 3 more bags of ice. Today I sat at anchor as the owner and buyer worked out details of what is happening next.... All the cold food I have in the box is not cold. All the ice is melted!

So, I guess the answer is that if you want to day sail and do overnights, the original ice box is great. For anything longer, a good cooler or engle is going to be much more useful.


.... Although, it is awfully neat to grab a cold drink from the cockpit..... Man I LOVE these boats!

[CapnK]

Hey Craig - Be sure to remind the seller that $60 of the proceeds is mine... (It's the principal of the thing. )

Then - You can keep the money and use it as the first 10% or so towards getting "Faith" an Engel of her own!