Solar Power, Panels, Charging, Etc.`

[ebb]

Thinfilm solar was invented 30 years ago -
yet already available for barn roofs true peel and stick inkjet printed solar film has not arrived in our niche market.

The oil and silicon crunch hopefully will put some wings on this technology.
I don't bet on it, being a cynic.
Solar energy seems to attract the most conservative research and development and product imagination in the western world. Its almost as if they are more interested in piggybacking into silicon markets than perfecting the technology. Even the acronym CIGS (for copper-indium-gallium-selenide) has a negative addictive quality.

The time is overdue for pasting featherweight energy making films on hatches and windows. We'll be sticking semi-conductors on mast and boom, on the dodger and on the cabin top.
There'll be simple connectors, direct sun won't be needed for fully charging our AGM's, and there are MBA's right now figuring out how much to stick us for it.
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Paper thin (probably more like cardboard thick) roll up silicon panels are available now. Powerfilm (IOWA SOLAR) is one product. They buiild their panels on plastic rather than glass. Silicon is considered clean, using no highly toxic cadmium that other thin film panels use. The silicon shortage has ended, and while it may get cheaper for manufacturers, it's unlikely that panels will get cheaper for us. Silicon costs more to manufacture into panels and is 1/2 as efficient as CIGS in converting sun to electricity. Little ships need efficient sun energy converters - in ounces not pounds.
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However you will still find Don Casey saying that thin film (rigid or bendy) are 1/2 as efficient as crystaline silicon. While crystaline panels themselves are only 10% efficient at collecting energy and converting it to juice. Warrenties for crystaline panels run 20yrs. Thin film 2 to 5 years. But we may be entering a new age where high oil will push solar to the forefront and innovation will become rapid. And hopefully cheaper.

OZsolar out of Sweden has 25W thin (3mm) film panels you can apply directly to the deck or hull(!). Sizes are 27.2" X 13.6" and 52.8" X 7.2" and 24" X 17".
All 25W and if my conversion is correct 490grams = 16 ounces each. So change is happening. What's the warranty (life expectancy) on these? Are they CIGS or silicon. I can see a solar bra on Little Gull's cabin nose like a Porsche! These seem like handy sizes. And imco as Ariel Cruisers planning our electrical needs we have to start at a minimalist 100 Watt level ( in terms of solar collector surface area) and par it down from there if we have to....

Won't be long we'll have solar panels we can tie onto the lifelines with the lifetime of sunbrella.
Or how about sails being solar collectors?
"Honey, unfurl the small jib we need to charge the Engel!"

[ebb]

I'm challenged by electrics. Don't have the knack for it.
In roaming around the net looking for info - or really looking for how one person did it on their boat - I've often been disappointed. Or 'put off.' General and basic info is useless - the only way I can learn is by example - so going to manuals and books for me is not an option.

The only way to learn is to jump in and acquire the basic stuff by example and necessity. Most controllers of info think you have to start at the beginning. Their tutorials are based on classic education models which are deadly and boring.

The teacher however has to be truly gifted - that's the problem - there aren't too many of them. I have not found a single book on electrics that uses a creative hands-on method to inform the reader on how to wire a 30' foot boat, let's say, from scratch. Of course there'd be a start at a beginning, like learning to sail, basic basics, but then: 'Bam!' here's some ways of setting up your distribution panel, etc. etc. With the whys and wherefores sidebarred and referenced.

Anyway, It is probably a testosterone allocation problem that can't be dealt with here.

We boat people are an RV by definition,
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/index.php
Set up like Bill's here, there is a nice familiarity, with tons of stuff to wade through and personalities, some seeming well informed.....and there is for newie's a PV Beginners Corner.

[if you go to the url above and get the intro page.
go to the PV Beginners Corner.
go to pg 2 and find an entry by 'techomadia' / 'Solar recommendatiions for a tiny RV....'
Read that entry, naturally, and check out
"Details and pictures of new project archived here."
There is a blue bar that is unresponsive off that page.
But the connection with we who are redesigning the A/C interior and yearning for long passages is obvious: minimalist nomad necessity, gear, construction of their new glass trailer , and solar. Meet somebody new, a couple into tiny living spaces - nice bright blog.]

There are boat specific discussions and prognostications by self-ceded shoguns and gurus on the Advanced Solar Electric Forum.


We have to deal with electrical energy from the minimalist stand. Most posters talk as if they have a huge house platform and addictive needs. It's doubtful that an Ariel can carry a Honda generator and an Ampair wind turbine Yet depending on only the sun for charging batteries out in the South Pacific seems rather foolish. Small boats can't take much hardware weight.
Some people want to get away from it all.
How much is too much - how minimalist becomes too uncomfortable to be fun and sustainable???

[Tony G]

Ebb

I hear ya, man. I am by no way an EE. Not even a rank novice and for over a month now I've been reading about panels and regulators and controllers and flooded and gels and three stage and four stage and hydros and wind and blah-blah-blah! There seems to be much discussion out there regarding the topic. And every time some one says 'I did this.' some one else sez, 'oh, you would have been better off doing this instead.' The manuals seem to be, largely, nuts and bolts. Put tab A in slot B.

I'm just going for the basic, minimal system. No desire to be the best set-up out there. Nav lights and radio are my main concern. The refer doesn't have to be full time. It would be ideal given the amount of money, weight and space given up for it. Interior lighting will be some LEDs and a lamp or two maybe one of them cold somthin flourescents.

A bigger boat and it would be okay to 'have it all'. Sure, you have to continually fix things because they're breaking down, but, come on-fixing a refer on your own boat in a nice little bay somewhere warm...I'd do it. A self-realized workaholic and yet a lazy-@$$ I think that would be the perfect retirement for me. It'll all get done when it gets done. Relax mon, everything is gonna be all right! Adapt and make the best of what you have. Look on the bright side and stuff like that. Or my all time favorite, People don't stop playing because they get old. They get old because they stop playing.

[ebb]

But I want my 'lectric blankie!


And computer, electric anchor winch, pumps, fans, radios, phones, fridge/icemaker, lights, actuators, inverters, water-heater, water-maker, GPS, LORAN, stereo system, depth sounder, electric start on the Yamaha. What I miss... the charge controller.

Look into the PWM, pulse width modulator, Morningstar Sunsaver SS-10L.
Desulfates your batteries, increases battery charge acceptance, reduces heating, self regulates for solar panel anomalies. and more promises. Ultimate jeeves for your deep cyclers.

Going off grid is the ultimate,
But on the Ariel it's like expecting to live off a windowbox veggie garden in the city.

[Tony G]

Ooh! Forgot about the fans. How about a recumbant style stationary bike with a generator hooked up on the foredeck? A guy's gotta stay in shape out there. We did buy the complete nav/boat toy kit, but I'm hoping to only use instruments to verify sail trim until I know what the boat likes and maybe check depth on the go. Lap-top is probably going to be-necessary(?). You're exactly right with windowbox analogy!

I figured I'd just spot all the Morris and Hinckleys in the bay and then go 'glob' off of them. Just kidding.

Didn't want to pay the extra $8 for the low-limit cut off so we stuck with the SS-10.

[c_amos]

Looks like a good set up Tony.

FWIW, We started our trip with a 40w panel, and found that was lacking for our engle fridge. I added 2 25w Sunlinq flexible panels which fit perfectly on top of the dodger.

I was sadly disappointed by these Sunlinq brand panels. I see West Marine has now picked them up.... I can not say enough about how poor their output was. I tried several locations, and never got more then a couple hundred ma out of either of them (or both). Fortunately I was able to return them to the hippie alt-energy place I bought them from (~750 for the pair).

Next trip we plan to have a ~120w panel over the top of the pushpit. If not for the fridge, we would probably be happy with the 40w panel we started with.

As a matter of fact, I was at the boat a couple hours ago. I have a link 10 battery monitor that keeps track of all the amp-hours that go into and come out of the battery bank. It has not moved from %100 since we turned off the fridge.

[Tony G]

Craig

That real world experience is what I'm looking for. So are you going to have a 120w and a 40w on Faith? Now I'm just being stupid...

This may be stretching this thread a bit too far but do you think your Engel's performance is in line with that of other owners? Was it a matter of loading less than cold items into it or going into the unit frequently such that it was continually catching up? Will adding more insulation, in your opinion, around the refer help?

If there is another, more appropriate thread out there for your answere, please redirect me. Or you could pm me also if you have some info for me. Thanks