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Thread: Navigation Lights

  1. #136
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    navlights

    Patrick, Thanks for the science on LED versus Black Body Incandescent!

    Now that I got that straight, went back to the Marinebeam site (link, a couple posts (#132) up from here)
    and reread the description for their bi-color and P/S side nav lights.
    They do indeed have red and green emitting diodes INSIDE....but the plastic (looks like plastic) covers are also colored red and green.

    And now that we are aware that the Achilles heel of LED is that it doesn't emit full spectrum light,
    we can assume that a couple mm of transparent colored plastic can alter the intensity and color of LED behind it....
    In Marinebeam's case, it must be OK. They aren't dummies, Right?
    Plastic being plastic, it is going to get etched by UV and elements... and is going to fog and further break-up the light. imco


    Went through my stock and discovered I already have a set of 3 AquaSignal Series 33 LED navlights.
    (2.75"L.x2"W.x1.75"H.) Made in Germany.

    They do look more like knobs off a kitchen stove
    than those smart bronze Deco teardrops Jerry shows in his fotos above!
    (A338 came to me with some kind of pot metal side lights and no stern light.*)

    Each AquaSignal Series 33 LED draws .18amp/2.2W and the literature says they are "USCG certified for 1 and 2 nm."
    Marked with noticeable Euro CE on the cases.
    Tidy matt white plastic snap-on housing, designed so that the housing cover surrounds the LED like it is an eyeball
    ... the single exposed emitter protected with a miniature CLEAR GLASS LENS.
    Innovative design seems to solve the problems caused by encasing emitters inside plastic housing.

    There is a disclaimer, that the lights are 'tested to be below approved IEC threshold values,
    but make sure there is sufficient distance between lights and radio antennas and equipment.'


    In contrast, Marinebeam navlight hype makes it sound like their lights cause absolutely NO VHF interference....AND exceed the 2NM limit.
    The same enthusiastic hype boosts their colored plastic lens housing into an desirable aesthetic.

    Both navlight sets have vented housings....therefor let water & ambient salt moisture in. What is "waterproof" are the potted emitters - not sure about that or metal connections hidden inside. Wire cable, no mention - for either product - whether connection wire is marine-grade tinned....(it isn't, imco)

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................
    *Reineck retros (no doubt equal quality to their incredible bronze blocks) are $180 PER EACH.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................
    AQUASIGNAL SERIES 33
    For some reason known only to Defender, they do not list the stern light of this matched set....altho the diagram they use to show dimensions is of the stern light housing. All three have the same footprint. Their price is $45 per each. They can be found cheaper. Sold in a bulletproof hang-up blisterpac, they probably are available everywhere. Haven't scoured forums for reviews.

    Because they stand proud almost two inches, a cross cabin dodger will have to be cut out to expose sidelights. Think that'll work quite well, given height and regular shape of the fixture. Imco, they can, because they are straight sided, snag lines coming to the cockpit along the cabin sides.

    I have not yet used any of these navigation lights....
    Last edited by ebb; 08-12-2014 at 09:30 AM.

  2. #137
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    Hi Ebb,

    Nope. If they do cause RFI problems, it will only be when they are powered on. The AuquaSignal lights do have "CE" approval, so I doubt they will be a problem.
    Last edited by pbryant; 08-09-2014 at 10:42 AM.

  3. #138
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    masthead navlight

    Reviewed a bit of history of this thread to see if masthead was covered. Getting forgetful.
    because I wanted to ask what pbryant has 30 feet over his head when sailing at night.

    Found the Practical Sailor response to my crab about their review of tri-colors.
    Ebb believes tri-color masthead LEDS must also be FOUR LIGHT - just the way I am.

    2010 in this thread:
    Got upset with PS because they didn't admit that four color mastheads even existed,
    and they excluded Hella and AquaSignal from their review. It generated a phone
    response from the PS editor who was mifted at my language but still only responded
    to half of my complaint.
    So far as I've been able to determine, in the four years to the present, Practical
    Sailor has not put together another all inclusive masthead light comparison test.
    I think individual MHLs have been introduced, like the new lunasea. but nothing
    that takes them on all together.

    While I was 'wandering around', as PS called my search method, I stumbled onto a
    patch hosted by SAILNET, that MaineSail holds forth on.
    The thread is called:
    Sometimes Practical Sailor Is Not So Practical..... from 5-30-2008
    where he takes PS to task - in a much more fatherly way than I can - taking apart an
    editorial called "Tinned Wire Myth Busted". Basically showing how wrong they are,
    and showing us (featuring MaineSail's patented foto close ups)
    how-where-when-why tinned wire MUST be used when wiring a boat. No cheating.

    Looked at my Hella four light masthead* (and my set of AquaSignal Series 33 wire tails)
    ....all wire ends have have the silver look of being tinned.
    *The Hella masthead clear housing is "UV resistant ultra heavy duty polyamide lens".
    Both crystal clear lens and body composed of high performance nylon.
    Also carries the CE symbol of Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC). 7year warranty.
    .................................................. .................................................. ...........................

    What has happen to the magazine in these 4 years hasn't splashed any that I've heard.
    There is a mean provinciality in having google whisk us to a site for some PS lowdown
    on LED replacements for incandescents. Only to read a piece of the lead paragraph
    that suddenly stops with: "If you want to read the rest of this article you must be a subscriber."
    Really???? Maybe Practical Sailor isn't a dependable source of advice?
    PS, Keep your advice close - in the bucolic backwaters of your karma.
    Last edited by ebb; 08-17-2014 at 09:18 AM.

  4. #139
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    > Reviewed a bit of history of this thread to see if it was covered because I wanted to ask what pbryant has 30 feet over his head when sailing at night.

    I have red-over-green lights conforming to COLREGs Rule 25(c) at the top of my mast (with conventional navigation lights down on deck). It's a rare configuration in these parts - but all the USCG licensed mariners have memorized: "Red over green -- sailing machine." Out in the Pacific, it's the big boats that worry me the most. I want there to be no ambiguity that I am a sailing vessel with a mast that might ding their prop as it passes through the blades.

    Tinned wire is a must around salt water. Bare copper dissolves around seawater. I've repaired electronics on board vessels where, after stripping a wire, I discovered there was no copper left inside. And salt air will creep up unsealed insulation corroding bare copper a significant length inside the insulation. Tin plating isn't eternal, but it lasts much longer.

    My procedure for making a splice is:

    1) Make a Western Union splice (see graphic). This is the recommended method NASA uses. I've added to it the step of using a sealant. The splice will be as strong as the unspliced wire. You can read more here. If you are working with stranded wire, apply a thin coating of solder to the strands after twisting them together. This will prevent the strands from unroving when the splice is made.
    2) Solder. I use 60/40 tin/lead with rosin flux core (never use acid core solders). Kester makes the best solder. Lead fumes are very bad for you. Solder only in adequate ventilation and avoid inhaling any of the fumes (the lead can boil on a hot iron releasing lead fumes that are easily absorbed if inhaled). If you inhale much lead you'll be as dumb as I am. Tin - with no lead - solder doesn't flow well, but it is safer. Use a soldering iron - not a gun. A good iron has a lot of mass in the tip that won't rapidly cool when it is applied to the wire joint. A gun will run too hot, will violently boil the solder, char the rosin core, contribute to oxidizing the wire and solder, and damage the insulation.
    3) Remove any visible rosin (light brown to black in color), which you will only see if you used an inferior brand of solder. Remnant rosin can be mildly corrosive. Rosin is soluble in alcohol, ether, benzene and chloroform. Only alcohol is safe to inhale. Use isopropyl alcohol and a toothbrush.
    4) Coat exposed conductor liberally with silicone or 3M 5200. Glob it on good.
    5) Slide good quality (not Radioshack / Fry's) heat-activated-adhesive heat shrink tubing over the joint. Make sure there is an ample amount of heatshrink to cover the joint and insulation on both sides of the joint. I use Raychem heatshrink.
    6) Use a heat gun (not a lighter or you'll burn the insulation) to shrink the tubing. If you used enough silicone/5200, it will ooze out both sides of the tubing when you shrink it.

    I avoid like the plague all crimp-on solderless junctions. The action of crimping stresses the wire causing it to have very little flex (fatigue) life remaining. The connection depends on the metal material forming the crimp maintaining a state of compression - which gradually fades. Most of the factory crimped-on terminal lugs on my Ariel had relaxed to the point that the wires could be rotated inside the lugs. Water vapor/salt intrudes into the non-airtight junction and it eventually corrodes away. If there's substantial current flowing through it, it then gets hot and accelerates the corrosion: power dissipated as heat = current squared times resistance. The resistance rises with increasing corrosion, causing more power to be dissipated. Any junction that's a solderless crimp-on is a little ticking timebomb waiting to fail on the day you find yourself being clobbered by a ruff seastate.

    If you are going to make wire junctions on a boat that last, you need to know how to solder. There's plenty of instructional material on line.
    Attached Images  
    Last edited by pbryant; 08-13-2014 at 05:16 PM.

  5. #140
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    red over green / barkentine? Some COLREGS interpretations

    pbryant has a full statement over at the SailNetCommunity site on a current thread:
    Red over Green Navigation Light. This is a revelation to me. Fantastic!

    I'm eager to collect Patrick's tips, like that historic tried and true lineman's splice!
    And recommendations for Kester rosin core solders. Having poisoned myself over the
    centuries, I've a biosystem backlogged with toxins - which is why I'm so strong
    on using green materials when available. Maybe I do tin.

    What SIZE solder do you have around? I'll probably get one more roll this lifetime.
    Plug in soldering iron OK?...garage sale?
    And I see tube shrink wrap + glue comes in 4foot lengths in many diameters...
    what's a reasonable variety of width and colors to do all new rewiring of Ariel338?
    Sounds like an investment just for wrap! Thank you for your help!
    .................................................. .................................................. ...........................

    Can't find an all-round-red/all-round-green combined lamp - in the market.
    ....imco an all-round mast-top lamp must be combined with all-round white 'anchor' light.
    As well as a strobe for the white. Freighter at sea - no can see me - no can me see.
    (I can 'see' the lamp... stack of LED hockey pucks. The NewSealanders (Hella) can do it.)


    SAILING VESSEL UNDERWAY. COLREGS Rule 25:
    (a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit i) sidelights and ii) sternlight.
    (b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can be best seen.

    (c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where it best can be seen,
    two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green,
    but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule. [tri-color]

    ...
    We can therefor exhibit a combined Red Over Green mast-top light in addition to the required red and green side lights and white stern light at the gunwale (boat-deck) level. Can not show masthead tri-color together with deck side lights. Or tri-color with R.O.G.
    Assume we have legal deck lights showing when maneuvering near shore under sail after dark.
    We are permitted at this time to ALSO exhibit a mast-top Red Over Green. [imco, the more moving colored light you can legally show over a dark backdrop - as when approaching the marina at night, with confusing dots of white light from dwellings, streets and freeways - the better!]
    PLEASE CONFIRM THIS INTERPRETATION.

    When we are under power with the sails up, we are by definition motorsailing and shall have no mast-top lights of any kind exhibited.
    A small racer/cruiser will have the 'half mast' steaming light* ON. Plus the three deck lights - red-green-white ON.
    *225 degree forward white light corresponds with the 135 degree stern light. (for 360 degree all round white.)
    Commonly referred to as a masthead light, it could, imco, be called the mast HEADlight (forward facing)..... avoiding some confusion.

    POWER DRIVEN VESSELS UNDERWAY. The >steaming< light is a navigation light. This is a popular term - not Colregs - probably created to solve the confusion between masthead light and masthead lightS. It is otherwise defined in Colregs Rule 21(a) as follows:
    {Colregs uses these unusual quote marks, probably to draw attention that this lamp is not to be confused with mast top lights}
    "Masthead light" means a whitelight placed forward over the fore-and-aft centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel.

    Rule 23(d)(i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph 9(a)[larger vessels] of this Rule exhibits an all-round white light and sidelights.

    The only light taller - on a moving power-driven boat - than red and green side light is an all-round white light. It can be assumed, imco, that if the stern light is OFF and the half-mast "masthead" 225 degree light is OFF**, AND side lights ON.... then the all-round mast-top white(anchor)light can be used instead...when motoring. [**because, maybe a 15foot off the deck "masthead light" is spilling too much light and interfering with "looking into the night".] An all-round white on the mast top on a moving power-driven sailboat doesn't compute for me.....
    Why are the split 225/135 more acceptable? {Ebb, the reason is that a single all-round White can be interpreted as a boat anchored or aground.)

    The combo down light option is not part of the Rules. [When wiring, imco, the foredeck light should be isolated from navlight panels.]
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....

    HELLA TRI-COLOR and ANCHOR LIGHT mast-top lamp. As some already know, this is an extremely expensive LED navigation light. (No moreso than the competition.) Seems very well made. LOOKS expensive. Electronics are isolated and forever sealed inside a transparent elongated donut referred to as the 'light engine'. The hole is occupied by a hollow 316 10mm shaft that clamps the two basic parts together. There is an access wafer on top of the housing that when turned by a coin exposes the shaft's 19mm nyloc hex nut. When the nut is removed, the clear donut section can be lifted out, gaining access to the electrical plug connector. An 18" lead exits the housing through a rubber grommet out the bottom. The bottom section is fitted with a heavy cast plate that secures the center shaft - with 3 thru holes provided for fastening the lamp base to the mast... via a bracket, most likely. Date of manufacture etched on the rigid nylon polyamide lens [not acrylic or lexan.] Tri-color consumes less than 4W combined. All round less than 2W.

    Contacted Hella - APAC & Middle East...Sales Manager immediately replied that the silver dollar sized access lid to the nut on top of the housing - which is not O-ringed against water
    - doesn't provide a seal because the shaft that holds the lamp together isn't waterproof - even tho it is contained in and inhabits the center of the lamp.
    My second question about the port and starboard LED, confirms that the emitters themselves are red and green.
    The small transparent red/green covers over the emitters inside are cosmetic*** - making the lamp's DIY orientation visual. Naked stern light and topmost all-round white emit thru clear all-round lens. We assume that colored plastic does not restrict or alter the color of the side emitters.
    Haven't found anything negative on the web about this tri-color.....except its price.
    [***the colored material is unnecessary, imco. The light engine module is sealed, covers cannot be removed.]
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........

    RED OVER GREEN - what does it mean? When sighted, it will instantly ID the light as SAILBOAT. A good thing offshore.
    Why not integrate this exceptional SAILBOAT SPECIFIC navigation aid with our little ships... before Rule25(c) is removed from Colregs for lack of use?
    Last edited by ebb; 08-15-2015 at 10:25 AM.

  6. #141
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    Colregs r.o.g.

    Sorry. Run out of space in the last post. Here, one last time, a summary:

    RUNNING LIGHTS
    RED OVER GREEN is a valid navlight option... that pbryant brings forward.
    The Brits are well aware of the Red Over Green COLREGS Rule benefit. Might see it as a gift.
    Here is a site I'm using for reference from http://www.boatlamps.co.uk/

    The three lamp choices for Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars:
    (consider what follows interpretive and not verbatim)*

    ...|Rule 25(a) Sailboat under sail only: Red and Green side lights, and 135 degree White stern light.

    ...|Optional. Rule 25(b) Sailboat under sail only: Combined tri-color. [No deck lights.]

    ...|Optional. lRule 25(c) Sailboat under sail only: Red and Green side lights, and 135 degree White stern light.
    ...|PLUS, in addition exhibit, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line: Red Over Green.
    This is an acceptable option not required by law.
    More lights make your boat more visible.

    There is no other Colreg Rule that has VERTICAL Red over Green orientation.
    That makes this exclusive color combination recognizable to larger boats, power boats, USCG as a SAILBOAT.
    And that is why knight sailors like pbryant use them.

    RUNNING UNDER SAIL WITH ENGINE
    ...|Rule 25(e): Sailboat motor sailing [partially or fully under power] Red and Green side lights, and 135 White stern light.
    ...|PLUS, [by Colregs Rule, a forward facing] White "masthead light" - showing with an arc of 225 degrees.
    [Diagrams are nearly always consistent, that this 'mast headlight' is never shown at the top of the mast on a sailboat.]
    The separation and height change of stern and masthead - for an all-round White light - in this Rule is expected to be seen on any POWER-DRIVEN VESSEL UNDERWAY (Whites at different Heights). An all-round MAST TOP WHITE LIGHT with side lights (NO STERN LIGHT) is permitted. The problem with this is that sailboat status is entirely given up by Colregs...along with the stern light, the r.o.g. can't be exhibited either!

    Red and Green lights are always associated with sailing and power vessels moving under command.

    ANCHORED OR AGROUND
    There is no distinction between power and sailing vessels at anchor:
    ...|Rule 30(b): A vessel (at anchor) of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round White light where it can best be seen...
    [No colored lights.]
    This Rule holds for any vessel less than 12 meters that is aground.
    For a vessel having no all-round white, imco, a sailboat exhibiting ONLY the two 135/225 White lights... will suffice.

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................
    No LED red-over-green (with anchor light) combo lamp is available in the market. Singles are available, but not from Hella.

    AQUASIGNAL Series 34 LED All-Round Navigation Lights. White, Red, Green. Double-puck size: 3"D x 2.25H. Not meant to be stacked. Possibly a sort of s.s. wire cage can be constructed to make a single 'lantern' to hold three lights stacked: Red($222) over green($100) over white($100). Wires will have to run on the outside of the housings, as well as the cage material...but I imagine it can be accomplished so as to allow upkeep. Assume the small amounts of foreign material crossing the lens won't be noticable, or diminish apparent intensity of light. $$$ puts it way out of my budget.
    Defender shows a shorter 34 model, 3"Dx1.25"H. Red, $240. Green, $100. White, $100. FisheriesSupply has the 2.25" Red for $140.57 and shows the list price as $200. Housing/lens: polycarbonate. Series 34 sealed light is a single emitter, rather than an array. CE - 3yrW.

    The HELLA LED tri-color (plus all-round white) mast-top lamp is a very tidy 3.25"D x 3.75"H. 7yrW. (Defender $543 - holy smokes!) It is unique in that the light engine module is a donut with a shaft down the center that holds it to the top & bottom lamp housing. Easy to imagine all-round colored donuts like the anchor light stacked as a light engine instead of the tri-color: I began e-mail discussion with a Hella rep, asking if a single 3light all-round Colregs inspired lamp might have been contemplated by Hella.
    Pretty sure my incurable curmudgeon status became apparent to him...and I was dismissed as a nutter.

    LOPOLIGHT is a Danish company whose line of LED navlights are based on the hockey-puck model. They have had enough technical problems in the past to make their very appealing design seem unreliable. Easy to envision a red-over-green-plus-white lamp...but they don't go there.
    pyacht.com sells an ALL LED 2nm combination White "masthead light"/ deck light ....(combo 225 degree steaming light/deck light). "Submersible" $556.95. 3.6"x3"x2". (In the same housing they sell a 3nm for over $800 !)
    {Later EDIT: Colregs requires one meter separation between red over green lamps...see
    below.}

    Neither the google search algorithm nor manufacturers nor venders are able to agree on what Colregs establishes as the Rule25(e) "masthead light."
    As a useful modern sailboat product, the mast light combo has never completely made it into the present LED generation. Deck light function is still almost without exception a power sucking halogen. The AquaSignal deck light part of the combo I have is completely open and exposed - probably to dissipate bulb heat. Spreader lights have morphed into LED - why not the deck light? Possible to upgrade the masthead with an LED festoon, but not the decklight. No authority will recommend doing this.
    AquaSignal, Hella8504, and Forespar masthead light combos have deck light incandescents. Assume none to be a sealed electrical fixture.

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................
    *The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, COLREGS can be printed out in a very nice 18pg form: www.bosunsmate.org/
    And a whole raft of support material. You will find the 'Rule' quotes above fleshed out in their full bureaucratic rhetorical glory. Make a copy!
    .................................................. .....................................
    how does pbryant rig his red on green?
    Last edited by ebb; 10-12-2014 at 08:15 AM.

  7. #142
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    Dangers of LED navigation lights

    That is the title of a thread with a number of interesting posts, pro and con, LED vs incandescent. www.sailnet.com > > Skills and Seamanship > pg 4 of the menu of threads: Seamanship & Navigation.
    To follow is a verbatim from pg 6 of the 'dangers' thread:

    10.23.2013 posted by capta:
    I was on watch steaming south through the Anegada Passage one night some years back, wide awake and sober by the way, on a freighter. Bridge height about 60 feet.
    From the port bridge wing I saw a red or green light (I don't remember which) ahead, and it appeared to be a mile or more away.
    I walked into the bridge to check the radar and out of the corner of my eye saw that light pass close to the port bridge wing.
    I ran out and saw about a 40' sailing boat under full sail sliding aft no more than 10 feet from the ship!
    I had already completed a circumnavigation under sail and numerous transAts and transPacs before this,
    so I was an experienced sailor and would not ignore a sailboat's lights or take them lightly.
    Ever since that night I have been passionately against masthead tricolor and consider them to be incredibly dangerous.
    A single colored or white disembodied light gives absolutely No depth/distance perception
    and no light at all shines on the water, boat or sails.
    Several times on Long Island Sound, I have had other boats masthead running lights obscured by my bimini
    and thought the guy an idiot, sailing unlit!
    You can do as you please, but nothing on earth would ever convince me to sail under one.
    [capta tags his post with this quote;]
    "Any idiot can make a boat go - it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, CA 1964


    This is a post essentially taken out of context from a lengthly thread.
    Here's two cents:
    It is not known what time period this close-call occurred. nor does it matter. The operative is the single light shining out of each
    segment of the tri-color light. In this story, the tri-color could have been incandescent. Or the tricolor could have had single emitter LED for each color. Take capta's experience as something that could have happened to anybody on that bridge. That, of course, is the point...

    .....The only lamp that can have an all-round emitter display (30 or 40, or more) is the all-round Red over Green. The sheer
    number of LEDs in each color will exhibit a more unique concentration of light (even if limited to 2NM) than a single emitter. Imco.

    This sounds like a plug for LEDs. And I could be convinced that multiple array LEDs White over Red over Green isn the ONLY way to go
    to legally create better light for our sailboat at night. I'll be looking for 3NM for the mast-top!!!
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................

    Interesting that the implied deck-level lights at sea may be more useful for the freighter to visually ID the sailboat.
    The tri-color (at 34' above the water on an Ariel) probably produces NO SHINE ON THE WATER.
    Colregs allows no other specific lights with a mast-top tri-color. Legally NO nav lights below!
    Maybe mentioned in this thread, have heard that some sailors display inside cabin lights to help tell-tale the boat.

    For the sailboat under power (propeller) the Colregs required "masthead light" found as a combo 15 feet off the deck on an A/C is a light that could be used tactically to show the boat in an emergency. The deck light cannot be used because it compromises night vision. However:
    Given the lack of information a lookout on a freighter's bridge has when it comes to identifying sitting ducks under sail,
    I'm now looking for an extra 2NM LED UP LIGHT for the front of the mast (at 15 feet) to be mounted on top of the 225 to shine straight up the mast, light it up, and any sail up there. Obviously help wake-up a lookout's attention to....whatn the hell is that boat out there?
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................
    LED RETROS?
    MaineSail has a couple photos of a lengthly shelf talker promanently displayed in his local Hamilton Marine store.
    Emphasizes that lamps are CG certified as designed fixtures, not by bulb inside, and taking out an incandescent and substituting an LED could be bad news in a number of ways..... Read it, same page as the post I've quoted above....well worth the visit.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................
    LED REPLACEMENTS
    Later EDIT. The Aqua-Signal 25 10W12A masthead/deck light combo is, imco, a temporary fixture. The mandated 225 degree mast headlight should be in its own waterproof IP68 case. This fixture is not waterproof. It cannot be made waterproof with goop or gasket. The electrical contacts for the bulbs are not protected, especially the deck light function. This fixture was designed by a half-brained idiot. This is not marine equipment. Merely correct marine décor for chumps like me.

    It's now about a year later, and led trade-outs for incandecent bayonets and festoons are well established. One source for led replacements is Dr Led. This company has experienceed too many failures to be a trustworthy source. Cruiser's Forum and SaiNet by count have dozens of sailors complaining. One ledapple tree loaded with rotten apples. You can tell from the Specifications that certain important things are missing from the descriptions of the bulbs. Country of origin might be one important to you. But another is the CE symbol which guarantees that EMFs are at a minimum to strict standards. DON"T USE DR. LED LEDS IN YOUR masthead combo.

    Go to Marinebeam.com. Look at the difference between the bayonet decklight offered by Marinebeam and Dr L. This is the exposed socket on the mast. Dr L's is an unprotected cluster of chips, but the M. has a single 5W Cree emitter protected by a glass 30degree spot lens. At 16ft up the mast, this bulb should make a 8'D of light.
    Replacement for the BA9S mini-bayonet is the BA9S Replacement SKU-9S-5W --$18 2W#,150mS (150lumens)
    Replacement Festoon SV8.5 is the 42mm/44mm Festoon LED Navigation Light Cone End Type Mini-Max. SKU FS-42-30C --$25 Constant Current Wattage 3.2W, 270mA. (175lumens). CE and RoHS compliant. Technically sound.

    Read Jeff Field's www.marinebeam.com/ "What You Need To Know Before Buying LED Cluster Lighting For Your Yacht"
    (Read it? Now you know why you didn't waste your money on Dr. LED ! !)
    These replacements are designed to be correct for the A-S fixture.
    Only possible caveat is that both emitters are cool white. Which is OK, as long as the light is not a blue wash.
    Last edited by ebb; 08-15-2015 at 04:48 PM.

  8. #143
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    Sunnyvale, CA
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    Name:  red-over-green1.jpg
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Size:  79.9 KBName:  Rule_25_c.JPG
Views: 1430
Size:  51.3 KB> how does pbryant rig his red on green?

    The COLREGs require that the vertical separation of the red light over the green light be 1 meter (39.4 inches). This vertical separation requirement is, I believe, the reason no commercial product is sold that conforms to the Rule 25(c) requirements.

    There is an exception: if the vessel is less than 12 meters, the separation can be smaller and proportional to a 12 meter vessel. So an 8 meter Ariel could have a vertical separation of 8/12 meter: 0.67 meter (26.4 inches). Two lights separated by 1 meter will appear to the naked eye as two distinct lights at a distance of one nautical mile (according to the COLREGs).

    My installation looks just like the illustration in the COLREGs (attached below). I have a red all-around light at he masthead, and four green navigation lights mounted on the mast at the uppermost level of my mainsail with the first reef taken in (I rarely sail with the main unreefed since it balances my 100% jib with the first reef taken in). My 100% jib also does not extend all the way up to the masthead. The four green navigation lights are mounted so two face forward and two aft on each side of the mast, forming a 360 degree arc.

    If someone wanted to produce a commercial product, it would have to be on a pole with the red all-around light at the top.
    Last edited by pbryant; 12-02-2014 at 03:48 PM.

  9. #144
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Which Rule?

    I couldn't possibly disagree with you...

    I've now found and read the Annex 1 - Continued..... of Colregs

    DANG, Read it as all 'power-driven' vessels.
    How can they have a rule for sail driven boat that requires top all-round lights to be separated
    by whatever distance when the driver sail must be up the mast and will block any lights
    lower than the mast top. They didn't think
    it through, did they?
    Colregs rule-makers are all miserable power boaters.

    Sorry, I'll go back and erase what I can in previous posts ASAP.


    Ran into a post of yours that explained how you did it.
    but wasn't paying attention: Maybe sailnet forum or Cruiser forum - too wigged out to recall....
    Now, I'll be trying to figure out a LEDgreen collar for the mast at your recommended separation....
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............


    Patrick, Thanks for the clarification of the bloddy rules in the FOLLOWING post!

    I also found that stand alone googlation of yours at http://www.sailnet.com/forums/806167-post25html
    dated 12-13-2011.... Thread: Red Over Green.....Red over Green: Sailing Machine
    Me go absorb phase now...bye...
    Last edited by ebb; 08-29-2014 at 03:07 PM.

  10. #145
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sunnyvale, CA
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    102
    The vertical separation requirement is in Annex I:
    § 84.03 Vertical positioning and spacing of lights
    (...)
    (i) When the Rules prescribe two or three lights to be carried in a vertical
    line, they shall be spaced as follows:
    (1) On a vessel of 20 meters in length or more such lights shall be
    spaced not less than 1 meter apart
    , and the lowest of these lights
    shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height
    of not less than 4 meters above the hull;
    (2) On a vessel of less than 20 meters in length such lights shall be
    spaced not less than 1 meter apart and the lowest of these lights
    shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height
    of not less than 2 meters above the gunwale;

    Rule 3 defines....
    (i) The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast
    to the shore, or aground.
    A vessel not underway should display:

    1) When anchored an anchor light.
    2) When aground, two red lights in a vertical line (the same as "not under command"). We were taught: "Red over red -- this boat is dead."

    That's Rule 30, and there is no distinction between power driven or sailing vessels since - if the vessel isn't moving - its usual method of propulsion is irrelevant -- it's not being propelled by anything.

    There are some exemptions to the requirement for anchor lights on small vessels.
    Last edited by pbryant; 08-29-2014 at 02:47 PM.

  11. #146
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Colregs

    Vessel aground:
    In Rule 30 (d) (i) two all round red lights in a vertical line.
    .....................(ii) three balls in a vertical line.

    ................ (f) A vessel of less than 12 meters in length, when aground, shall not be[/I] required to exhibit
    the lights and shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (d) (i) and (ii) of this Rule.


    Vessel at anchor:
    Rule 30 (b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best
    be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.
    {(a) describes the placement of two white lights on a vessel.}

    These Rules use 'shall' and 'may' to prescribe use of lights and shapes. With 'shall' being more absolute.

    'May' in the permission of Rule 30 (b) may not exclude an
    all-round white that shall be exhibited (Rule 30 (a) (ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the all-round light that shall be exhibited (i) in the fore part of a vessel.
    In other words, a second lower all-round white at or near the cockpit of an A/C shall not be excluded - and may not be breaking any Rules.
    And shall help deter any breaking and entering, should the owner be away from his or her anchored vessel, or asleep onboard.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................................

    ANNEX 1
    I can understand and accept the science of the visibility of lights displayed together,
    with separation of the lights intended to keep them visible at 1NM and 2NM distances:

    ANNEX 1 Position and Technical Details of Lights and Shapes.*
    The whole thing refers almost specifically, and without a doubt consistently, to power-driven vessels.
    That's perhaps why the wide separation of R.O.G. vertical lights seems so grotesque when interpreted for a sailboat,
    as an Annex Rule is being applied to Rule 25(c) boats under sail alone.
    Sail vessels under sail are not alluded to in any of the Rules in Annex 1.
    It is not reasonable, imco, to garner Rules for a R.O.G. sailing machine... reefed of not...from Annex 1.
    *Masthead lights are consistently referred to in Annex 1,2,3. Masthead lights are prescribed for power-driven vessels.
    This is, imco, another indication that the Annex Rules are what they constantly refer to:
    FOR POWER-DRIVEN vessels, not sailboats under sail. (But do apply, of course, to power-driven sailboats.)


    Imco the separation of lights of the SAME COLOR is what the power-driven Rules are all about.
    Believe that red and green light can be interpreted at Nautical Mile distances when the lamps are much closer together than one meter - simply because the lights have separate wave lengths. Red over red needs separation.

    Of course this is all reduced by the legal difficulty inherent in not following the Rules.

    Capt Bryant, sir, your solution is very clever indeed.
    You have persuaded me that R.O.G is the only way to go.
    (Shall try to keep the tri-color/anchor light at mast top, but add an all-round red also at mast top....
    And ring the mast lower down with green LED. I'm a believer in Redundancy.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........

    If I'd observed all the rules, I'd never have got anywhere. Marilyn Monroe
    Last edited by ebb; 08-30-2014 at 02:35 PM.

  12. #147
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    all-round R.O.G.s

    pbryant, referring to your post at #143, on this page...

    In keeping with Colregs special dispensations granted to under 12 meter vessels.... the proportionate math for the separation of vertical all-rounds is also entirely reasonable for a 2NM permitted navigation light vessel of 8 meters... in length....under sail.
    It is in keeping with the spirit of the Rules, and with the urgency of identifying smaller moving sailboats in a variety of hairy conditions.

    However, if the meter separation between green and red all-rounds is adhered to by all who choose to exhibit sailboat exclusive R.O.G.,
    the amount of separation seen by another ship can be used to guesstimate distance from the observer to the sailboat. Wider the separation, the
    closer the sailboat - closer red and green appear together, the further the boat is from observer. I'll do the full meter on litlgul's mast.

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................

    {This can be skipped for the reason given in the next section}
    CREATING ALL-ROUND ON THE MAST
    Assume that incandescents are obsolete, and LED is the light source of choice. Expensive - and ridiculously expensive.
    However, LED light has much going for it: Durable long lasting life - 20,000 to 100,000 hours. More compact sizes. Much less current draw. Smaller wires. And if designed well, tolerates a sodium cloride environment.
    For navlights up the mast, those risky trips to fiddle with light bulbs are done for. LEDs arrived and are here to stay.
    They have also been around awhile, hopefully making them more reliable. If the light goes, the whole expensive 'light engine' must be replaced.

    {Deleted section here about Attwood's 'reasonably priced' 2" round Wall mount red and green sidelights rated for 50,000hrs with a 10yr warranty.}

    It finally occurred to self to find out if these sidelights are CE approved.
    No knowledgeable vendors - finally got through to Attwood.
    The bottom third of this post has been replaced:
    DO NOT USE THESE ATTWOOD LED SIDELIGHTS on your mast with VHF antenna.

    LEDs on a boat need expensive switching drive circuits that operate at high frequencies - and must maintain very high slew rates.
    Can't give you a definition of slew as I'm unplugged, but it has to do with the maximum rate of change in voltage output.
    The manufacturer of better LEDs must add more complicated design to his 'light engine' to offer EMI mitigation.
    Blocking electromagnetic interference comes at a cost...to us.
    Attwood 3570-7 2NM vertical sidelights do not have CE certification.

    We cannot ring the mast with these LEDs. What off-the-shelf LED lamp can be used? Haven't a clue.

    The salesman I talked with at Attwood said a "quiet design was deliberately left out", or more likely considered an unnecessary expense. Hence their 'attractive' price at $77 a pair. ASSUME THIS ATTITUDE EXTENDS TO ALL OF THEIR PRODUCTS.
    Until confirmed otherwise these LEDs are a big potential problem interacting with VHF radio, antenna and other electronic devices like solar controllers. http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.co...d.php?t=154064 ....VHF Noise Suppression {no Attwoods here}
    Did you know that compliance with FCC Part 15 and the CE "Is primarily based on the honor system."
    Other problems: the salesman couldn't tell me about: how short the wire tails are, no links to a manual, no country of origin
    Imco, these are not genuine navigation lights.

    There are some Hella Compact Sidelights 2.79"l x 2.09"W x 1.29"H (CE unknown) 4 sets $720 among a bunch of vertical nav sisdelights on the market. What WAS most attractive about the Attwood is the circular footprint, one dimensional 2"D and their spherical 1" height. Really too bad Attwood did not go the extra nautical mile and give their sidelights global status. Their hype states that the lamps exceed USCG requirements. Not stated as an approval.
    Defender presents AquaSignal 2NM Series 33 LED vertical sidelights with a dimension diagram: 2.68"L x 2"W x 2.05"H.
    I'll be using these at hull level on LittleGull. Their more than double volume (compared with Attwood 3570-7) would look stramge anywhere on the mast, imco, and the elongated footprint would make them awkward, if not impossible, to position on the mast curves. They were never meant for masts, anyway. Approvals: BSH, USCG, IMO COLREGS, GL, RINA, ABYC A-16, CE. World Class, wouldn't you say?? We hope these AS Series 33 lamps are world class dependable.
    CE is a mandatory EU logo used to indicate a device conforms to EMC Directives and is similar to US FCC Declaration of Conformity.
    ALSO, look for the International Protection Code on LED. IP65 is 'weatherproof'. But IP68 is the highest rating for protection against dust intrusion (6). Highest mark for continuous water intrusion (submersion) is (8) and is called 'waterproof'.
    $77 for the Attwood pair. $90 for the AquaSignal. Can't find any current navigation sidelights to use at mast top.
    Attwood shaves $13 and ends up selling a toy - rather than the dependable safety device a navigation lamp has to be.

    No R.O.G.s in this BOG.
    Last edited by ebb; 10-09-2014 at 11:19 AM.

  13. #148
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Thumbs up all-round flexible strip rogs

    Seems like this exchange here has stopped.

    Have decided not to use any off-shelf LED navigation lamps for all-rounds at mast-top.

    Will be using Waterproof LED Flexible Light Strips.

    Have located FCC/CE IP68 strips installed (per Colregs r.o.g.) on a SFBay Triton.

    Nufsaid. Later.
    .................................................. .................................................. .........................
    Two person or singlehanded offshore night sailing wisely suggests reefing the mainsail.
    A 4' luff reef would expose enough mast for meter separation between all-round
    red at mast top and all-round
    green 39" below.
    Last edited by ebb; 10-09-2014 at 11:25 AM.

  14. #149
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
    Posts
    580
    Anyone know the size of the steaming light festoon bulb? Not finding it in discussion topics or the manual. Replacing my incandescent with LED. I can climb a ladder and investigate, but I thought I'd ask the collective brain trust for a replacement part size / model if anyone knows...

    I found these 12v A15 size LED bulbs to replace the incandescents in the cabin wall fixtures. Don't know if my fixtures are stock or replacements. With shipping, the bulbs are $20 each (yeow!!) but I like the minimal battery draw.

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    Kyle
    C-65 Lucky Dawg

  15. #150
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Eastern, CT
    Posts
    35
    What is a festoon?

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