hulldeck joint/and a story

[walberts]

I think the leak is in the hull/deck joint. I hoped it was coming in through some other means, but checked them out and I keep coming back to the joint. If I understand you, it won't cause the deck to pop off if I remove the joint cap. Right? I figured that it wouldn't, but I didn't want to be surprised. Call me cautious and uninformed.

If I can do that, it seems like it would be not too big a deal to seal the joint with 5200 and then re-install the joint cap.

As far as Ariel #1 is concerned, she is down on the Sassafras River in MD. In John Griffith's barn. He is on the final stages of restoring her and she should be back in business this Spring. I will get some pictures from him and see if I can handle the technology necessary to post them on the site.

He has taken pictures throughout the restoration, and it has been a really big job. As he said, "They made a lot of mistakes on the prototypes and then remedied them as time went on." John is a retired boat surveyor and a master boat-builder from England. Old school. He's made a real jewel out of hull #1.

[Bill]

The hull to deck joint has always been a maintenance pain. Chapter 8, Section E of the manual discusses the joint and its recurring need to be recaulked. It also describes a method for permanently sealing the joint.

[commanderpete]

Good story and I can't wait to see # 1.

In order for water to get inside, there would have to be a crack completely through the inner overlapping layers of fiberglass. Such a crack should be visible from the interior. I'm a little doubtful the water is coming from there.

On a particularly rough day I'll get quite a bit of water below. It comes in under and around the companionway hatch.

Here's a picture of Tim's Triton Daysailor, which has the same type of joint.

[ebb]

I can hardly wait to see!

I hope he will be encouraged to share some photos of what he has done with us! A surveyor, huh? THAT says a lot about the Ariel! And the surveyor!



The rub rail has probably been off a couple of times to plug the holes. 338 had blobs of silicone goop and smears. Another telltale were size larger screws and (always) slightly out of sinc extra holes.

If the s.s. is in good shape and worth saving then a restoration move is in order. Nothing will stick to where silicone has gone befor. I really hope you don't find any under the rail. I used a Dremel tool with tiny carbide abrasive wheels to clean the seam. Watch it, you can cut thru tghe tabbing inside. When you start, check from the inside that you are not cutting thru! On 338, paint had been sprayed up into the cove of the toerail, so adding more frp inside is extreme. Silicone has to be mechanically removed.

I think C'pete did a renewal on his Commander and added a layer of glass on the outside. You have to look for that. That is what you are looking at if you find a really bad seam and have to radically grind out bad glass and stuff. Hopefully a 5200 solution is the way to go for you. It has been done. Consider using the adhesive in a careful taped off stripe and then applying the rail dry or with a smear of polysulfide so it can be taken off again. Consider 5200 structural and sulfide bedding compound. If your seam is in really good shape you might go with all sulfide.

The thing is, if you are carefully going to put the rubrail back, you'll be using the same holes. They were never a good place for fasteners. You can't go with a size larger OR a size longer to get more purchase. So, if I was stuck with the same screws in the same holes, I would spend some serious prep time creating a new back for the screws with epoxy, cabosil, and glass powder in an attempt to produce something for the threads to grab. IE filling the seam and holes. That is my opinion. I don't think rubber will hold as good.

A wham bam thankya mam fix would glue the rail back on with 5200 and let the next skipper do restoration. Next time it would probably have to be done because the rail would be destroyed taking it off.

You will notice that nearly the whole length of the molded toerail doesn't follow the curve of the hull. The seam stands furthest out and can therefor be easily changed by a frisky makita. You don't want to change the profile of the joint because the butt joined hull/deck laminates are pretty skinny here.

1/2" s.s rubrail is available at a price, but you almost would have to get a shop to drill and countersink the holes. IE to place holes where the old holes aren't. Nothing wrong with a nice wood rail. Might allow extra frp over the seam. A concave surface on the mating side of the rail could accomadate some additions and make a nice gasket of sulfide over the seam. Seems to me Mr Griffith would be good to ask, too!!!

Oh, and on 338 the seam across the transome was filled and glued pretty well at the factory. The rail had to be prebent to get it on. If it is in good condition, maybe just leave it, leaks here are not getting in to the cabin sole, but that is open to discussion!

[ebb]

Oughta say that C'Petes's photo of the toerail of Tim's other boat only mildly resembles the toerail on 338. Admit I never sawsalled out a section like that!

You have to imagine the butt joining laminates on an Ariel (but then I don't know Every Ariel, do I?) is about 1/8 to 3/16" thick. Looks like 5/16s there on that Triton. 338 didn't have any of that other stuff, that extra U shaped section filling the cove. That cove there is full of garbage.

The factory hull and deck were pasted together with matt over the seam. How much or how many layers unknown - but there wasn't much of a bump. Some went up into the cove, a lot did not. And it was neat, pressed on smooith - I know because not many Ariels have had that cove scraped and sanded out on both sides and the top, all 54', as dear ole 338. Golly, what fun!

But 338 was/is stripped inside, access to the cove reasonable. A fully found boat has to be worked on from the outside. Oh yas, I remember now: Ed glassed the seam on Pathfinder. But I don't know how it was done without fairing most of the topsides! You know the glass tape has to overlap the seam top and bottom. You're doing it for strength, really. The instant you paste cloth/matt onto the hull below the seam onto the curves of the hull proper (the toerail is ok) you got a can or two of epoxy fairing to do! By golly, even more fun!

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Capt Walberts:
Ready to see photos of #1. I hope you get them to work for us on the gallery page. My own surveyor experience when I bought Sun Quest #338 led me to think that surveyors only made lists of obsolete equipment and counted lifevests. Did get copys of some nice photos, for a goodly fee.

To get a retired professional surveyor's view (hopefully) of his own restoration from the beginning and of the very first Ariel Pearson made.... is unprecedented. Almost unbelievable.
Well, I hope we get some of it!

These little boats got the P O W E R !

[commanderpete]

As far as I can tell, Pearson laid the deck section on top of the hull section. Little, if anything, was used to join the hull to the deck where they meet together. They were pretty much just butted on top of eachother.

However, on the inside, multiple layers of fiberglass were used to join the inside of the hull to the underside of the deck. This is what holds the boat together.

I don't see how water can get inside the boat unless that fiberglass has been pierced all the way through by a screw or whatever.

When you remove the metal rubrail, you can fill any seam where the hull and deck were butted together (after cleaning out any punky glass). Using 5200 or thickened epoxy might add a little structural strength.

I also think the cove on the underside of the metal rubrail should be filled with sealant so water is not trapped there against the hull.

Like ebb said, adding a strip of fiberglass along the seam on the outside wouldn't help much strengthwise. There just wouldn't be enough overlap unless you first ground back the gelcoat well above and below.

I added about 4 layers of overlapping biaxial tape on the inside. I'm not entirely sure why, since I didn't have any problem with the hull/deck joint. Grinding the paint out of the underside of the toerail was no picnic, eh ebb?

[commanderpete]

Here's another one of Tim's Triton pics.

The seam is actually below where he made the cut.

[ebb]

That's not what we A/C's got, I'll swear to that!
No, I think adding a stripe of xmat tape to the outside on the seam Would add a lot of strength AND a lot of fairing - whot I meant.

I suppose someone could add such a tape of epoxy and glass only 2" wide and cover that, without having to fair, with a wood 'rub rail.' Or now that I think of it. a genius could add a wider 'sheer strake' of reinforcement if the bottom edge was kept bristol with a sort of form protecting the hull.

I sure think the hull and deck have to be attached well. The two forms meeting, especially the deck with its channel-like toerail, don't have any place to go. The designer's original engineering with the non-oilcanning laminations, thickness and curves, was evidently correct. A flange on the hull wasn't considered needed.

Nobody's done it so far as I've heard, But the A/Cs could literally be unzipped apart, They would keep their shape while being refitted and then pasted back together. Holy codfish how much easier it would have been with 338!!! Next time.

5200 just might be a good enough 'temporary' leak fix.
Sounds like quality control didn't always check on the laminations over the seam inside. Yet lid and pot have held together all these years with merely a butt kiss.

Have to remove the rubrail to see if there is hole that will let any amount of water in. Agreed it couldn't be that much to show up on the sole. My vote goes to the deadlights. 338's were smeared all over with a disgusting display of silicone snot and goobers. Taking them apart revealed that they were mounted between the cabin molding and the liner, suspended. The liner is rather flexible. The lights depend on a sort of clamping action over the empty space between the cabin amd liner. No way. And numerous smearings prove that frustrated former owners recognized the Source.

Water getting in under pressure via the deadlights could be serious. Silicone is notorious for letting go as well as welding itself indiscriminately. Water gets in thru the seam in the glass and frame or between the frame and cabin. There were definite signs in 338 that water got in between the liner, ran down under the deck and onto the shelves that run along the stringers. That puddle went wherever a former owner placed a forgotten thruhole - After it puddled under the cushions it got to the sole!

yeah, befor you tackle the rubrail maybe it's w rth another sail on the wild side

[Hull376]

My experience with 376 was that water appeared on the sole whenever we had sailed with the rail in the drink. During restoration, I pulled off the stainless steel rub rail and found that the sealant had failed, and there were some screws that pierced through the hull. These screws were the likely source of the water intrusion. Any, I'll vouch for the effectiveness of using a dremel tool to clean out the seam on the outside of the hull, then refill it with 3M 5200. Voila--- no more water mysteriously showing up on the sole. And as Ebb says, double check the portlights---- Next on the list of suspects is the screws on the cabin top handrails.

[Bill]

In our experience with the fleet here on SF Bay (my own experience included), the hull to deck joint leaks and the problem started appearing back in the late 1960's. It may have become obvious to us since we sail rail down most of the summer. Over the years, all manner of fixes were attempted, each getting better as epoxy & sealant technology progressed. (And yes, the fixed lites will leak, but that is in addition to the hull to deck leak.)

Several local skippers have found good results (as described in the manual) by cleaning out and epoxying the seam, then finishing with 5200 when reinstalling the ss trim/rub rail.