hulldeck joint/and a story

[walberts]

In mid-October, was sailing on the Chesapeake With John Griffiths (who owns and is restoring Ariel #1) in rougher than usual conditions: Small craft advisories, 20-25 steady, gusting 30-35 . Double reefed. The boat handled it well, but when I looked below, there was water on the cabin sole. No water on the bulkheads over the bunk area, but I think it came in closer to the area where the winch pads are. Then flowed down and into the bilge.

I suspect the hull deck joint was working under the load and I want to seal it. Can I remove the metal cap rail that covers the joint without compromising the whole joint? In other words, does the cap play any structural role or is it just a cap.

On a completely unrelated note: An interesting thing happened on this trip. We were out in the Elk River which leads to the head of the Bay. It was rougher than I've ever seen it (since 1950) and we saw what looked like a sailboat in distress. Jib flogging and wrapped around the headstay, mainsail streaming to windward and a man standing on the transom. The wind was blowing the tops off the waves.

We went to see if he needed help and then we saw that he was trailing a hard tender and a girl was clilmbing into it from the stern. She hunkered down in the bow and then we saw another girl climbing aboard. We hove to and asked if he needed help. "Just stand by." Was the answer. We stood by and watched as he hauled in the dinghy and one by one managed to get the two teenaged girls aboard his boat. They were looking worriedly off into the area behind the boat and so did I, expecting to see another kid struggling in the waves. Nobody.

I thought, "If there is another one out there, she's gone." Then I called to the rescuer. "Is there another one?" He yelled back over the wind, "No ... They're looking for their canoe!!"

Imagine that! Wherever their canoe was, it was beneath the waves. Lucky that their samaritan happened by. When we left, he was wrapping them up in blankets and trying to deal with his sails. I forget the name of his boat, but I remember its hailing port ... Galesville MD.!!

We made it to our anchorage (aptly called "Still Pond") several hours later and anchored just as a thunderstorm with 45 knot winds and hail struck.

What a day! We had beef stew and a scotch and slept very soundly.

[c_amos]

I am right there with you.

Having spent 10 boat bucks at WM last weekend I read for 6 hours last night of hull to deck repairs and refinishing (as well as varnish work).

It would be an injustice for me to paraphrase, so I recommend you
click the search.

Make sure you have a large block of time set aside when you do. There is ALOT writter here about just such a repair.

Good luck!

[ebb]

ARIEL NUMERO UNO! PHOTOS PLEASE!


Great story that, the rescue! One fine skipper!

C'amos is right there is a huge amount on the deck/hull joint. Two figures of speech stand out, tho:
If that joint was 'working' you'ld be down there with the canoe! No way!
And imho that 1/2" half round trim piece plays a de'structrural' role in the joint. You have a hundred or more screws driven right into the seam, rail down you could be getting water in here. And a number of other places. Dead lights, ports, vents, thru hulls and thru decks, cockpit drains and seats, etc.

When it happens again, take a forensic look around down below, you know, like with a flash light look for the sheen of wet. When heeled and bouncing water can take unusual routes to the bilge and sole.

If, eg, you have water on the shelves, it has the whole cabin length to find the drain holes if you have them. Then the settees and the furniture will allow water in and run further along the hull. In 338's case the bottom tabbing on the settees just above the sole was cracked. A good thing because water couldn't stay in the enclosed space.

The Search will find our posts but the threads sometimes don't lead to a nice textbook cascade of fixes. Don't go silent on us!

And Ariel #1 is very, VERY intriquing, I, for one, would find any photos of the first Ariel extremely gratifying, Please.

[walberts]

I think the leak is in the hull/deck joint. I hoped it was coming in through some other means, but checked them out and I keep coming back to the joint. If I understand you, it won't cause the deck to pop off if I remove the joint cap. Right? I figured that it wouldn't, but I didn't want to be surprised. Call me cautious and uninformed.

If I can do that, it seems like it would be not too big a deal to seal the joint with 5200 and then re-install the joint cap.

As far as Ariel #1 is concerned, she is down on the Sassafras River in MD. In John Griffith's barn. He is on the final stages of restoring her and she should be back in business this Spring. I will get some pictures from him and see if I can handle the technology necessary to post them on the site.

He has taken pictures throughout the restoration, and it has been a really big job. As he said, "They made a lot of mistakes on the prototypes and then remedied them as time went on." John is a retired boat surveyor and a master boat-builder from England. Old school. He's made a real jewel out of hull #1.

[Bill]

The hull to deck joint has always been a maintenance pain. Chapter 8, Section E of the manual discusses the joint and its recurring need to be recaulked. It also describes a method for permanently sealing the joint.

[commanderpete]

Good story and I can't wait to see # 1.

In order for water to get inside, there would have to be a crack completely through the inner overlapping layers of fiberglass. Such a crack should be visible from the interior. I'm a little doubtful the water is coming from there.

On a particularly rough day I'll get quite a bit of water below. It comes in under and around the companionway hatch.

Here's a picture of Tim's Triton Daysailor, which has the same type of joint.

[ebb]

I can hardly wait to see!

I hope he will be encouraged to share some photos of what he has done with us! A surveyor, huh? THAT says a lot about the Ariel! And the surveyor!



The rub rail has probably been off a couple of times to plug the holes. 338 had blobs of silicone goop and smears. Another telltale were size larger screws and (always) slightly out of sinc extra holes.

If the s.s. is in good shape and worth saving then a restoration move is in order. Nothing will stick to where silicone has gone befor. I really hope you don't find any under the rail. I used a Dremel tool with tiny carbide abrasive wheels to clean the seam. Watch it, you can cut thru tghe tabbing inside. When you start, check from the inside that you are not cutting thru! On 338, paint had been sprayed up into the cove of the toerail, so adding more frp inside is extreme. Silicone has to be mechanically removed.

I think C'pete did a renewal on his Commander and added a layer of glass on the outside. You have to look for that. That is what you are looking at if you find a really bad seam and have to radically grind out bad glass and stuff. Hopefully a 5200 solution is the way to go for you. It has been done. Consider using the adhesive in a careful taped off stripe and then applying the rail dry or with a smear of polysulfide so it can be taken off again. Consider 5200 structural and sulfide bedding compound. If your seam is in really good shape you might go with all sulfide.

The thing is, if you are carefully going to put the rubrail back, you'll be using the same holes. They were never a good place for fasteners. You can't go with a size larger OR a size longer to get more purchase. So, if I was stuck with the same screws in the same holes, I would spend some serious prep time creating a new back for the screws with epoxy, cabosil, and glass powder in an attempt to produce something for the threads to grab. IE filling the seam and holes. That is my opinion. I don't think rubber will hold as good.

A wham bam thankya mam fix would glue the rail back on with 5200 and let the next skipper do restoration. Next time it would probably have to be done because the rail would be destroyed taking it off.

You will notice that nearly the whole length of the molded toerail doesn't follow the curve of the hull. The seam stands furthest out and can therefor be easily changed by a frisky makita. You don't want to change the profile of the joint because the butt joined hull/deck laminates are pretty skinny here.

1/2" s.s rubrail is available at a price, but you almost would have to get a shop to drill and countersink the holes. IE to place holes where the old holes aren't. Nothing wrong with a nice wood rail. Might allow extra frp over the seam. A concave surface on the mating side of the rail could accomadate some additions and make a nice gasket of sulfide over the seam. Seems to me Mr Griffith would be good to ask, too!!!

Oh, and on 338 the seam across the transome was filled and glued pretty well at the factory. The rail had to be prebent to get it on. If it is in good condition, maybe just leave it, leaks here are not getting in to the cabin sole, but that is open to discussion!

[ebb]

Oughta say that C'Petes's photo of the toerail of Tim's other boat only mildly resembles the toerail on 338. Admit I never sawsalled out a section like that!

You have to imagine the butt joining laminates on an Ariel (but then I don't know Every Ariel, do I?) is about 1/8 to 3/16" thick. Looks like 5/16s there on that Triton. 338 didn't have any of that other stuff, that extra U shaped section filling the cove. That cove there is full of garbage.

The factory hull and deck were pasted together with matt over the seam. How much or how many layers unknown - but there wasn't much of a bump. Some went up into the cove, a lot did not. And it was neat, pressed on smooith - I know because not many Ariels have had that cove scraped and sanded out on both sides and the top, all 54', as dear ole 338. Golly, what fun!

But 338 was/is stripped inside, access to the cove reasonable. A fully found boat has to be worked on from the outside. Oh yas, I remember now: Ed glassed the seam on Pathfinder. But I don't know how it was done without fairing most of the topsides! You know the glass tape has to overlap the seam top and bottom. You're doing it for strength, really. The instant you paste cloth/matt onto the hull below the seam onto the curves of the hull proper (the toerail is ok) you got a can or two of epoxy fairing to do! By golly, even more fun!

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Capt Walberts:
Ready to see photos of #1. I hope you get them to work for us on the gallery page. My own surveyor experience when I bought Sun Quest #338 led me to think that surveyors only made lists of obsolete equipment and counted lifevests. Did get copys of some nice photos, for a goodly fee.

To get a retired professional surveyor's view (hopefully) of his own restoration from the beginning and of the very first Ariel Pearson made.... is unprecedented. Almost unbelievable.
Well, I hope we get some of it!

These little boats got the P O W E R !