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Thread: REACHING AND RUNNING

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    FOSSIL OREGON
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    Cool REACHING AND RUNNING

    Something i've had a little trouble with are the downwind legs. She is quite a handful in the swells on a broad reach, and especially a dead downwind run. Forget that one! In calm waters, she is pretty fun, even got the spinnaker up. But when it's blowing good, and 2-3' swells and whitecaps on the river, man, you better be paying attention. Is there something i'm not doing right, or are they all this way? I have to say i think offshore would be a better ride than the bloody Columbia with 25 knots blowing up river against the current. Gets old pretty fast, and not much fun. We got stopped in our tracks by a couple swells when close hauled. I was glad she was a good stout boat--she handled it fine, but sure putting things to the test. It would be interesting to measure the lbs. of force on the rigging.
    Maybe those downwind runs are why there was all the cement in the bilge? Any thoughts? Stay home when it's over 20? lol
    wet willieave maria

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Orinda, California
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    Gee, a handfull running with the wind? Why, I've never heard of such a thing

    Extra displacement might be very helpful . . . A couple of thousand pounds of cement should do it

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
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    Central NJ, Raritan Bay
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    114

    Close hauled

    Hi Willie,

    In Raritan Bay we have a lot of high speed commuter ferries, as well as lots of commercial tugs, barges, tankers etc. that generate a mess of wakes, swells and whatnot, as well as some bodacious ocean and bay swells on an east wind. During one race we actually got pooped by a ferry wake, right into the cockpit - wet my white yachting shoes, and soiled my blue blazer sleeve.
    Something we've found helpful while running close hauled into swells or high wakes is to turn down a few degrees into the wakes and turn back up when they pass. This helps maintain your speed so you don't stall, cause the wakes will try and force you into the wind and irons if you're not careful. Also, if the jib sheets are eased a bit that pocket helps you power through the peaks. You may lose a degree of point, but make it up on speed. Also, in higher air, Ariels love big jibs, and you don't always need a lot of main to go fast. I reef down the main and run on the jib - helps weather helm that way too.

    Downwind is tricky with any kind of following or quartering sea. Lots of tiller work, and stay alert. I try to run wing and wing every chance I get, with good results mostly.

    Carry on..
    ()-9

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    Agree with Dan. You cant make much progress against a steep chop with just the mainsail.

    Running wing and wing in that kind of weather is not for the fainthearted. Sailing downwind is fun, except for the fact that you eventually have to turn around and bash your way home--which can be slow and wet.

    Most times in high winds I'll just sail out on a beam reach and back the same way. Kinda lazy, but I'm usually the only lunatic out there anyway.

    You should try sailing overcanvassed on other boats---positively frightening, out of control. By comparison the Ariel rides like she's on a rail.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    FOSSIL OREGON
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    Cool overcanvassed downwind

    Thanks for the info., I've still got so much to learn. Hadn't really given being overcanvassed downwind much thought. Sure would be nice to go out "sailing" with someone with some experience. Around here, you say sailing, and they just kinda look at you funny!

    So on a run downwind, wing and wing, say with 15-20 knots, gusts to 25-30, do you pole the working jib out to windward, put a reef in the main to leeward? I've done the wing and wing in less air, worked ok on calm water. Decided reaching back, keeping the jib to leeward and steering so you don't blanket it with the main worked ok. So if she's wallowing bad in the following seas, guess it's time for a reef in the main? And stupid question, but how does one go about that singlehanded? Heave too with the jib backwinded, tiller lashed over to leeward? I've been working on that too, seems to work ok for awhile.

    Also, on the jibs, I have a small working jib, high cut clew, id say it's probably
    only 70-80 %? No battens, like the origional working jib for the Ariel was. Also have a 150 genoa that was made for a J-24. North Sails, with the nylon straps and snaps for hanks. Seems to set great. I've been hesitant to use it when it's blowing good. Maybe i need to get over that. I've had it on in say, 10-15knots, and worked great. Was able to balance her good enough to go below, fwd. and mess around for a bit. Sure helped the weather helm, and that makes sense. So you're saying go with the 150, and reef the main if it seems like it's too much? Humm...
    Last edited by willie; 10-19-2004 at 12:41 PM.
    wet willieave maria

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    Things can go bad in a hurry singlehanding in that kind of wind.

    Tie in a reef at the dock. Hoist the small jib. If you want to go downwind then broad reach in that direction, chicken jibe (tack all the way around), and broad reach that way some more.

    Forget wing and wing, forget the pole, forget the 150.

    Just my opinion.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Central NJ, Raritan Bay
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    114

    Holy Crap!

    Willie, Bubala,

    On a downhill run, 20 gusting to 30 knots, I would heave the pole overboard, go below and change my skivvies, brief stop in the main salon for a gulp of Jack Daniels, back on deck to let run both halyards, trice up the rags and fire up the Nissan aluminum spinnaker. Then get my analyst on the cellphone and ask him what in hells name could possess me be out solo in those winds.

    But since you are there already, hypothetically, here's my two centavos. If you have the stones, I guess you could pole the jib to windward and run with a reefed main. Real tricky, plus you would have to first come around into the wind to throw a reef in the main, tough to do solo even with an autopilot, then fall back off and rig the pole to the jib. Easier to do if you have your reefing line system run back to the cockpit; I do not. And wallowing seas are not the time to be fooling around on the foredeck with a ten foot clothspole.

    Overall I can imagine fewer more hazardous situations than setting canvas changes in that level winds, with a bad wallowing sea, alone. Except maybe doing it at night, in December, with an earache, sans PFD and jacklines. Yikes!

    Yes, heaving to as you describe works well with the Ariel, done it lots of times for lunch, naps, and smooching with the wife. But never tried to reef that way. It works better to let the main run out to looard a lot, as well as backwind the jib etc.

    On jibs, I fly a 120 high cut working jib for most anything over 2o knots and a 155 genoa for anything below that. I have a funky drifter of unknown dimensions, but it's big and baggy and points like hell, so it stays in the bag a lot. I would suggest getting a crewmate and just trying all different setups to see which works best for your particular boat trim. Don't be shy to push the envelope a little more each time. It's hard to get in real trouble with the Ariel, as long as you stay aboard. Go easy, but go. Just not alone!
    ()-9

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    FOSSIL OREGON
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    oh boy!

    I'm still laughing.
    So i'm not as dumb as i sound. In that kind of wind, i go with the small jib. Last time i didn't reef the main, and she did fine. Just a handful coming back downwind--like i said origionally. And i did sorta wonder, "this is supposed to be fun?!"

    I singlehand about every other time out, when the xo and crew decide to do something else. (which might not be a bad idea) But i want to learn how to handle her in the heavy stuff too. We took lessons a couple years ago on a Santana 22, in Hood River, the wind capital of the world. So i've had a little experience with wind. But i'm still trying to figure out Ave M. And it's hard to try different things by yourself! I try to set her up at the dock for what i expect, and stay on the conservative side. I've seen the Columbia change in a heartbeat, and it's no fun.

    Also, we're engineless. And dragless. Flush thru-hulls, new bottom. She coasts in light air like a dream. We do have 11' sweeps, which work great for maneuvering in and out of the slip. If you have them handy! I have a 'marina mode', and a 'sailing mode'. Marina mode, we have the sweeps ready, fenders out, docklines ready, boat hook close, halyards run aft to cockpit. Power up or down using the sails. You get an idea of how far she'll coast in after a few tries. And how fast she'll take off! And how much room you need for tacks. We kinda push the limits, but i think that's good. You never know when you'll need to know what those limits are. When that iron jinny quits on you, you'll know what to do, and not sweat it.
    wet willieave maria

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Yeah, think of the children, and the cows.
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  10. #10
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    Talking what the.....!!!!

    Oh man, that's good! You are something cmdr peter!
    I'll be careful. And i do think about the children, as does the xo." NO, you're not going!!" We try to pick the calmer days for them.
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    Last edited by willie; 10-19-2004 at 02:24 PM.
    wet willieave maria

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz
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    Hey Willie,

    I would like to offer an idea if you want to pursue the idea if wing and wing. In S.F. we do a lot of sailing in similar conditions that you speak of. On Pathfinder we are often pushing the limits. Jib winged out is a point of sail that is often used. One little tool that we have is a ring attached at the clew of the sail. This ring is made out of some old shroud material. It is tied in with the sheets.

    The ring is what the pole is attached to. This allows us to jibe the sail without having to unattach from the clew. You just disconnect the pole from the mast slide the pole aft of the head stay push it forward on the new side and then attach it to the mast. After it is made fast trim the jib from the cockpit and jibe the main. It is all in the timing and takes a bit of practice.

    As far as what and when in terms of sails I think I agree with the others. Larger jibs up to around 15 knots true and smaller jibs after that (100 or 120). Spinnaker not much more than 15 true unless you have a real experienced crew and a set of twingers pre rigged.

    God luck man, it sounds like you are having fun....ed

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