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Thread: All those wires inside my mast gotta go!

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Santa Cruz, California
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    Interesting ideas for getting wires through the deck and having them flex for mast lowering during a tabernacle operation, but we may be making too much of a big deal out of this. My VHF antenna coaxial cable had been installed for many years before we un-stepped the mast for repairs a couple of weeks ago. I did not discover the crack in the plastic outer layer of the cable because the radio quit working. It was working just fine until we disconnected the antenna. I merely discovered a crack and some corrosion when I removed the rigging tape that covered the cable from a point inside the mast to the deck port.

    Therefore, this arrangement survived many years of use without failing. Perhaps it was a bad design, but my electric wires (four of them) and my coaxial cable exit the deck jut aft of the forward hatch cover. That means that they are somewhat forward of the mast, so when the mast is being lowered, there is considerable flexing of the wires and of the cable during the operation. Since there is a hard spot where the wires run through the deck, the section of wire just above the deck port would probably flex the most, and that is where the plastic outer layer on the coaxial cable cracked, but since that is exactly where people could and probably did step, the tabernacle is not necessarily the culprit.

    When the wind is blowing, and you are standing at the base of the mast to reef the main or for another reason, usually the last thing you worry about is stepping on the wires.

    I have no intention of installing a quick disconnect to remove either the coaxial cables or the electrical wires before I lower the mast, however a piece of plastic flexible conduit around the wires might better shield the wires and cable and prevent them from kinking.

    SkipperJer, I am familiar with the Cable Clam. West Marine stocks them but agree with Ebb, that device looks like it would work well with coaxial cable and perhaps with duplex or triplex wire cable, but not so well with bundles of separated wires. I prefer the design of another device that has a rubber gasket. West Marine stocks them also, but I do not recall the manufacturer. These devices have a screw on top that forces the gasket down and in on the wire. The nice thing about this second device is that the point of entry for the wires is an inch or so above deck, and this allows you to tape the whole unit with rigging tape.

    I am a great believer in rigging tape. Take a look at the low-tech solution on my boat in the photo below. Ignore the nasty bridge-impact caused crack and the odd epoxy mast step. That was then and the second photo is now. The second photo reflects the repaired area, but get beyond that and take a look at the strange little aluminum cylinder in the first photo. That little guy was just pressed into a hole in the deck and then glassed or epoxied (probably epoxied) onto the deck on the outside of the cylinder. A cluster of four wires were then shoved up through the hole and the cylinder and the whole wire bundle was taped with two layers of black hard-to-remove tape, one layer of hard and brittle white tape and a final fourth layer of that sticky pliable white rigging tape (I applied that final layer and it never leaked after that.

    So low teach is an OK solution for wires. No tape solution is forever, but the section between the mast and deck is readily accessible and you can easily replace that small section of rigging tape every few years. What lies up the mast is another matter.

    That aluminum cylinder was removed to accommodate the deck repairs as can be seen in the second photo, which shows the two holes covered by blue tape, since it was drizzling this afternoon when I took the photo.

    Now if the wires and cable came out of the deck closer to the side of the mast, the wires would not flex quite so much, but they would be in the way of the blocks that run the halyards, boom vang and down haul back to the cockpit, so I will have to live with this wire deck port location.

    Please keep in mind that in the first photo the forward two holes in the (missing) mast step plate and the brown-colored epoxy base below it (shown in the first photo) are directly over the strong back. The bolts that ran through those holes ran into holesdrilled all the way through the strong back. The nuts that held those bolts are still captive inside the strong back. I am not sure whose bright idea that was, but perhaps that was the location of the original factory mast step plate bolts. I don't know. Drilling holes at that location would seem to weaken the strong back, so I am not sure why it was done.

    Those holes in the mast deck plate and deck will now be further forward in the V berth area. So that should give you some perspective when you are thinking about where else you could run wires though the deck without having them exposed in the main salon or inside of the strong back, in the way of the mast base blocks or underfoot.
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    Last edited by Scott Galloway; 09-30-2004 at 10:49 AM.
    Scott

  2. #2
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    So here is the promised second photo.

    I sure am glad for the advice on the foam SkipperJer. Mold in the mast sounds ugly. The wire ties sound devine. I intend to pull my new coaxial cable down the mast through that tiny exit hole, since I already have a nicely installed connector on the top end, and there wil be no other connector above deck, however I haven't yet figured out how to attach cable ties to it as I slip int into the hole. I have thought about hooking it with a wire and pulling up a loop through the main halyard sheave opening and then tying on the ties and slipping it back down on sectionat a time as I go.

    Or, ther eis some flexible corrigated plastic conduit that Orchard Supply sells that in 10 foot lengths for under $4.00 ($0.40 pr foot). West Marine charges more for what appears to be the same but a somewhat more nautically named product: "Anchor" as I recall, which is sort of an odd name for a product to run up your mast.

    So I thought that perhaps I could run the coaxial cable down from the top with a pull-line attached and then slip this flexible condiut over it from below with some cable ties strategically afixed, and use the line to pull the conduit and cable ties back up over the coaxial cable. That would protect the cable from chaffing and prevent the cable from making noise. These corrigated conduits are a hard plastic, split on one side and are almost weigtless. If allowed to fly free they would probably make appropriate bell clappers.
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    Scott

  3. #3
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    Nov 2002
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    I did connectors last. I laid out all the wires on the ground next to the mast allowing extra length for goofs, tied it all together with the wire ties, ran the electricians fish from the top of the mast to the bottom, rat-tailed the tip of the harness and hauled it through in one pass. It makes it all worth the effort of pulling the masthead to make this easier. It was a bit of trick fishing individual wires through exit holes for the steaming light but not too bad. I bought a bag of assorted grommets at Home Depot and slipped them over the wires after they were through and had reasonable luck pressing them into the holes. "Reasonable" meaning I guessed wrong on sizes and trashed a couple in the process. Connectors went on last once wires were outside the mast.

    This is all the accumulated knowledge acquired watching and helping a number of other people in the local DIY boatyard do things like this before I stuck my neck out. You won't find me chiming in about some of the projects I tried cold turkey. Most of those have not gone well. Well, they've all gone well--eventually!

  4. #4
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    SkipperJer,

    What size (length) wire ties did you use on the wires in your mast. Did you bundle the coaxial cable in with the electrical wires, or did you attach wire ties to them each independently?

    Here is what came out of my mast today with a lot of work. All of the foam was in good shape, but in addition to the more-or-less closed cell foam tubes, there were periodic wads of dark green open celled stuff. It was quite a job to get all of that foam through mast, particularly below the spreaders where lots of bolts protrude on the inside.

    All for the stuff in the two images below came out of my mast today. Just removing this stuff made me feel that putting foam inside your mast is a bad idea. I can just guess what the weight aloft might have been if that stuff was wet. Thanks to my three-section extendable aluminum boathook I was able to drag the foam out when I could get it a few feet below the spreaders. It took hours of very frustrating work. The dark green wad of foam on the far right was one of three similar wads that came out with great difficulty. These wads were nearly the diameter of the mast, and they were open cell. Part of one is still in my mast at the spreaders. I am pulling it through the spreader holes piece by piece with a screwdriver and a pair of long nosed pliers. The pile of dark green foam shards in the image on the right came out through those holes. More to follow, before I try to force the final green wad down the mast.

    Even the tubular stuff wads up if the bottom end of it snags on a bolt, Don't use it.

    The spreaders are off because I discovered that the mysterious red and white wires went into the spreaders. They could not be pulled without removing the spreaders, pulling four strands from one spreader and two strands from the other, and then cutting the wire.
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    Last edited by Scott Galloway; 09-30-2004 at 09:27 PM.
    Scott

  5. #5
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    I don't remember what size ties I used. It was one of those moments in the Home Depot aisle (I try to shop there first) where I said, "hmm, how big is that mast?" and just bought a bag of them. They got used up on various other projects. A three-tailed star every 18" or so bigger than the internal diameter of the mast was my goal. I think mine were probably heavier than they needed to be but in the end that made no difference. Too small or light in weight might not keep a lot of wire from slapping around. You could try making a star every 12" if in doubt.

    I wrapped everything together but did twist the DC wires on the theory that if there was any way to interfere with the RF, twisting might mitigate the effect but I'm not smart enough to know that for sure. I suspected that making seperate bundles didn't offer any advantage. The radio and the lights seem to work fine so if I'm wrong, its not by much.

    My guess is your boat had deck lights on the spreaders at one time. I've seen lots of them with the wire exiting the outboard end of the spreader and doubling back halfway to the light. Did they look like they were cut-off at the ends?

  6. #6
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    SkipperJer,
    Could I verify - you twisted all the DC wires together. I guess they are in a teisted bundle using appropriate ties that keep them twisted.
    Then the coax cable was bundled to that with the regularly spaced cable stars.
    Just want to make sure because I often read that the wires and cable should be separate. But none are specific as to how separate. I would guess, also, that the twisted bundle configuration contines back to the panel after the junction box under the mast??? The coax following the same path together with the DC. Do I 'see' it correct?

    Instead of spreader lights, I like the idea of a single light on the mast at the spreaders. Don't know if this is a lega\l forward facing 'masthead' light, but the fixture I've seen is often dual purpose. How much trouble is it getting the wires to that spot? Luck?
    Thanks.

  7. #7
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    Thanks SkipperJer,

    I'll probably go with 8 inch ties every 18 inches. Now I have another question:

    I'll post this question on a new thread also, but here it is anyway for all who have wandered this far down in this thread, since it makes sense to clarify this issue here also:

    The "Spreader Tube" inside the mast: Should there be one?

    Please find a photo of my mast in the spreader area with the spreaders removed on the new thread "Spreader Tube" if you need toi see a photo to understand this. There are three holes in the mast in a vertical line. The top and bottom holes are for the bolts that through bolt the spreader bases together. The twisted white and red wires came out of the middle hole protected by a snug fitting heavy short plastic sheath (perhaps heat shrink tubing).

    There were no spreader tube por bushings inside the mast.

    Earlier in this thread, Ebb wrote, "The spreader tube is there of course to keep the thrubolt from squeezing the mast where all the work is concentrated, spreader sockets and the four lower shroud tabs. It is installed from outside into holes that just fit the tube."

    Sometime ago on this website, on the "Spreader Socket Broken Thread, Bogel wrote, "Spreader bases are through bolted with no bushings inside the mast. Original upper bolt was a 1/2" x 4.5" and the lower bolt was 1/2" x 5". Lower bolt also holds the lower shroud tangs."

    I have reviewed the manual and find no mention of a spreader tube in the text, in the specifications, in the drawings or in the sample Ariel equipment inventory. On the other hand no spreader detail drawing is provided.

    So my question is: Was a spreader tube provided during construction by Pearson in the Ariel. My Ariel is #330. If not, have owners added such a tube?

    I am not quite sure how exactly one would get wires into a tube and down the mast anyway if you wanted spreader lights.

    And by the way, my spreader wires went all the way to the ends of the spreaders and there never have been any holes in the tubes for exit ports. The port spreader wire doubled back on itself and ran into the starboard spreader as I recall. The continuous two wire run therefore ended in the starboard spreader. The ends of the wires were nicely taped with electrician's tape.
    Last edited by Scott Galloway; 10-01-2004 at 10:02 AM.
    Scott

  8. #8
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    Nov 2002
    Location
    Lutherville, Maryland (near Baltimore)
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    Two bundles was way too complicated for me but that doesn't make me right. I twisted the DC wires then made the wire-tie stars to hold it all together. Like I said, everything seems to work fine. If I'm getting signal loss it has not been a problem yet. I put in a multi-pin connector between the new wires in the mast and the old ones going down the compression post. I don't know if those old wires are twisted.

    Because of where my radio is located, I pulled the VHF wire out the side of the mast at the bottom and ran it through a Blue Sea CableClam to the radio rather than go to the trouble of pulling another wire down the post, across the bilge then up to the radio location.

    I already had a steaming light and hole in the mast. I had to fish the steaming light wires out with a skinny screwdriver. It was tricky but doable. Like I said a few posts ago, I laid it all out on the ground next to the mast first to get the lengths right, tied it all together, then pulled it through. The steaming light wires came out of the bundle near the hole and I teased them through one at a time. Not elegant but it worked.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
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    As for the PVC piping, my recollection is that I installed a 1 1/4 pipe and today it is full - with the antenna cable, masthead light, 3/4 light and foredeck downlight (the latter two are a single fixture). I used #12 wires throughout.

    You will want to rivit the pipe to the mast with aluminum rivets. I have three sets of two rivets (One rivet per set might do). There use to be a single screw at three locations (top, bottom and middle), but on a cruise the screws stripped and the PVC pipe became a clanger - loud an clear.

    Also, my pipe, as I recall was 20 feet which carried the lines to the 3/4 light.

    I have an internal wire rope jib halyard, and one of my concerns has been the halyard chafing against the electrical wires. I have had no identified problems however.

    As for the spreaders, I have two large through mastbolts that tie the two spreaders to the mast. There is no internal tube. The spreaders are tight, with lock nuts, but do not compress the mast. Incidentally, Solsken is 1962 build year.

  10. #10
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    Nov 2005
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    trolling through some older posts i noticed this one. The Don Casey pop rivet method of securing a conduit in the mast looked like a difficult solution to implement.

    I also fitted a PVC conduit into A-231's mast, but used a dollop of '5200 every 2 feet instead of the pop rivets mentioned above... a messy job but very easy to do. Has anyone else tried this method?

    no problems with noise or chafe with any lines running internal to the mast (like the topping lift).
    Last edited by bill@ariel231; 07-03-2007 at 09:21 AM.

  11. #11
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    Bill,

    Very interesting. How did you apply the 5200 without it being deployed ( as in smeared) at unwanted places inside your mast? Also PVC conduit would seem to put a lot of weight aloft.

    I am interested in knowing if anyone has messed around with the new LED tricolor mast top lights with their very tiny and very light electic wires.
    Scott

  12. #12
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    Scott

    My method was only a little different from the pop-rivet method:

    1. The mast head was stripped of the sheave and hardware to give me room to reach a couple fingers into the mast head. The mast was laid out on the lawn with the hole for the vhf and mast head wires on the ground side of the mast (I wanted the pvc to settle to that side when glued up).
    2. Three ten foot lengths of pvc conduit were glued together and cut to length as a unit. In my mast, the conduit starts 6 inches above the base of the mast and terminates a couple inches below the hole drilled for the mast head light and vhf. I also predrilled a 1/2 inch hole in the conduit for the steaming light and spreaders. With the conduit ready for install it was placed on the ground in line with the mast base.
    3. With the pvc conduit rotated so that the glue side was”up” I applied a 1" bead of ‘5200 approximately 16-24 inches on center along the length of the conduit. (this is shown in the left side of the sketch below)
    4. Now for the messy part… at this point I passed the conduit and its dabs of ‘5200 into the hole in the base of the mast. This part is messy even when wearing gloves.
    5. With the conduit now in the mast “glue-side-up” I now moved to the mast head. Reaching a couple fingers through the slot for the masthead sheave it was possible to rotate the conduit glue side down.

    After a wait of 24 hours, the conduit was ready for wire and the mast reassembled.


    cheers,
    bill@ariel231

    p.s. As for weight I wasn't too worried I used 3/4 inch pvc conduit. My bigger concern was keeping the wires clear of the internal lines in my mast.
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  13. #13
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    ARIEL/COMMANDER Mast Electrics Manual

    I want to thank you all for sharing your advice and experiences on this subject.

    I've downloaded these two post pages to study and have as reference.
    It's eighteen 8 1/2 X 11 pages of good stuff.

    F A N T A S T I C

    Thanks!

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