If a wood joint stood a chance of being exposed to constant dampness I don't think I would use anything but an epoxy or resorcinol, as much as I like Tite-Bond III. But cycling between wet and dry states will ultimately destroy any joint, regardless of the glue. We all know that maintaining the varnish or paint helps things last.
Resorcinol has a funny taste if I remember.
Resorcinol has the track record and is the only glue that will take extremes of wet and dry, heat and cold.
Epoxy has very limited exposure outside and has been known to disintegrate even if maintained. See the renovations that had to be done to all those traditional finished cruisers from 20/30 years ago - especially anchor platforms and bowsprits.
Epoxy glue is an interior glue! It can't take heat (it softens) and can't take cycling because it doesn't move. If you seriously have to keep exposed wood together, there's definitely 5200.
Last edited by ebb; 01-26-2010 at 01:25 PM.
So, er, uh, what are you guys sayin' here? My mast beam is going to fall apart? I haven't noticed anything coming undone voluntarily yet. Is 'yet' the operative word in the works here? Crimony! I guess Ebb's lead in holding the beam together is a fix I could apply easy enough, but, I'd rather think it wasn't necessary...crud. Oh well, one step forward and you know the rest.
Resorcinol's rap is that of being harder to work with than epoxy. You can be sloppier with epoxy. Garden variety epoxies may have some trouble with UV and high temperatures but are tested as being stronger than resorcinol. And there are epoxies that perform well at higher temperatures. What are they making the new Boeing 787 from?
I agree that the best strong back is a band-sawed piece of solid white oak. Preferably from an old gnarly hanging tree.
Ben
Well,
Resorcinol is a wood specific 'bonder'.
If you were gluing exterior mahogany rails up from strips and scarf joints there is no other glue. When you glue coaming blocks and winch islands up with epoxy you will have separation at some point. And as I just said if you have an epoxy glue-up like a bowsprit and/or teak anchor roller they are guaranteed to come apart. I don't know how long it'll take, but the more heat and wet/dry cycles they experience the sooner they will come apart.
I'm talking about pieces of wood brought together into a structure.
Epoxy IS definitely more versatile. You can glue wood together and seal it with the same epoxy. You can fill gaps and fillet, you can laminate fiberglass onto wood and foam panels with the same stuff. You could probably do a barrier coat on the hull with it. But, by definition, you only achieve a mechanical bond.
I hesitate to use that term here as the adhesion is mechanical but not a BOND. There is no comparing here with Resorcinol which can only glue flat pieces of wood together FOREVER. It has a bad rap because of its short open time and need for high clamping and controlled temp.
If I had been more comfortable with Resorcinol I might have done A-338's strongback lamination with it. I felt I couldn't do it within the short open time required.
It is entirely possible to put together a new rudder for the Ariel/Commander with foam and glass OR plywood and glass using good epoxy. There is always the chance that the epoxy can separate from the wood or the foam.
You have to take this into account when designing the rudder. But this is not gluing wood-to-wood. The whole intent is to encapsulate the wood - and it sometimes doesn't work. Exposed, varnished wood swells and shrinks. Epoxy glue-line is more or less non-shrink and hard. Wood wins.
If you had to glue wood-to-wood together for underwater use (like the original non-encapsulated rudder) Nobody would spec epoxy. It's possible to butcher-block and pre-bond pieces together into 'planks' with Resorcinol for cutting the shape and use polyurethane or polyether for gluing/caulking edge to edge planks. Most people these days would then SEAL the wood with a thinned epoxy, then attempt to waterproof with a polyurethane coating (or whatever new comes down the everchanging chemical pike.) Or go right to bottom paint. Imco that's conventional wisdom.
In every case epoxy must be protected with another coating. Even a novolac needs UV protection. Pigmented epoxy coatings/paints will chalk and breakdown. There is no comparison with LPU coatings Even polyester coatings will outlast epoxy coatings. On those winch islands use a clear coating with the highest UV rating you can find. That'll help some.
The chemistry keeps changing. There are new combinations appearing: epoxy polyesters. epoxy urethanes and resorcinol epoxies, and ETC for both adhesives and coatings. Quite amazing.
But at the moment everyday epoxies that we buy really have limited use on the exterior of a cruising sailboat.
Please, I work with these assumptions on my Areil. If there are developments or stuff I've forgotten (more likely every day), please clue me and the boat in! We both depend on it.
The limited info about glues and coatings that I work with IS ALL conventional.
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Laminating white oak w/ Resorcinol - The WoodenBoat Forum
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For unstressed gluing somebody by now must have tried using CLEAR polyether or a silyl-urethane. !NOT SILICONE! Also sold as Hybrid Sealant/adhesive.
This is a one-part, low odor, 100% solids, long life, moisture cured, always flexible synthetic rubber in a gun tube.
Worth experimenting - like gluing a stack of mahogany blocks together and boiling them for awhile!!!
Last edited by ebb; 01-29-2010 at 08:10 AM.
Ebb
I really appreciate the time you put into your responses. The epoxy vs. resorcinol question is new to me. I understand what you're getting at. And I'll be sure to put 10 coats of Eplfanes on those blocks.
I think many people including myself get involved with these old boats thinking that with a little repair effort you can have some fun sailing for a few seasons before everything wears out. Of course once you get started and develop attachments to the project you want the dam thing to work right and last.
Ben
It is REAL easy to get really attached to these boats and want to do the absolute best job you can bringing them up to better than new condition.
Furniture I've built since I could reach the top of a tablesaw. But doing the job right on a boat is a whole new learning curve. And thanks to this place I'm getting an education.
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