galley stoves

[epiphany]

RE: Alchohol stoves - from the backpacking world, there are a number of small, homemade, denatured-alchy burning stoves which have considerable output of heat, and use diminutive resources to attain it. The design principle is basically:

A burner/fuel reservoir, made of the bottom of two soft drink or beer cans, using a pair of scissors and a needle to fabricate the burner. The bottom 1/2 inch or so of both cans is cut off with scissors. In one of these pieces, a number of very small holes (30 or so) are made with the needle, spaced equidistant around the outer edge. A few more not-quite-as-small holes are made in the middle of the bowl-shape of the can bottom - these are for fuel filling. On this same can piece, the former can-wall is then snipped vertically in perhaps 6 evenly spaced places, to allow this piece to be slid into the other. Inserting this piece into the other completes construction.

This reservoir is filled with alchohol, and ignited. The resultant heat soon boils the alchy within, and, when the rush of escaping vapors from the boil ignite, the small pinholes act as jets. A most satisfactory blue flame is achieved within a minute or so of ignition.

There is no on/off switch with this type of stove, it is either stopped, or full-ahead. However, you can vary cook-times by increasing or decreasing the size of your burner/reservoir, and make a few of them, each of which can be used on a task-specific basis (for example, I have a "coffee" burner, and a seperate "food cooking" burner). They are so simple and quick to make, experimentation to achieve just the right amount of burn-time for a particular task is easy.

Use Google and do a search for "KISS Stove" - there is a page which has many different designs people have engineered, almost all with instructions and particulars about what the designer was trying to achieve with their variant.

If you found these burners to be efficient enough to be adopted, this would allow one to make their own perfectly sized gimbal, into which an appropriately sized burner was dropped when food or drink needed preparing.

[ebb]

Goodd mate there, Capt. Liz.
Hope it's all seasonal past tense!
Your stove's a good mate too.

Supposedly CO2 and H2O are produced by burning alcohol, people say it burns clean and colorless. We burn a number of fuels in the galleys of our little ships. We accept that because the stoves are in the stores and the fuels are on the shelves that it's taken care of for us - with the cautionarys
like for propane and venting for heaters thrown in. Often information is endlessly repeated from a nebulous source person to person, sometimes correct, but often wrong. It is impossible to find what else is produced by the fuels we use. I know, you're not supposed to ask. I've not read anything about propane, kerosene makes soot, charcoal can kill (carbon monoxide,) white gas, diesel. sterno, what else?

Electricity makes clean heat!

Unburned liquid fuels are BAD to inhale. The MSDS on alcohol sounds like what you might expect when handling nuclear waste. My solvent of choice (may also be used in marine stoves) Kleen Strip is made by the Star Bronze Co. Ingredients are: Ethyl a. - 42%, Ethyl Acetate - 3%, Methyl a, - 51%, Heptane - 1-3%.

Interesting, it says in the MSDS that the reason we are given this info is the Emergency Planning & Community Right To Know Act of 1986. Presumably it took an Act of Congress for them to come clean. 58% of the ingredients in the stuff I almost bathe in working with epoxy on the boat are toxic and poisonous! Right! it's also dangerous to cross the street.

What's that glow on the lasgna? I'll have another cup of hazzardous raspberry tea! If we were informed, it might even be bad to burn pure food alcohol! Methyl a. comes not only from wood, but out of the petro chemical industry, refining oil.

When they did forensics on the 5500 year old 'iceman' they found in the Alps, his lungs had arsenic (presumably from smelting copper) and other contaminates from wood fire. They lived clean in the days befor the industrial revolution.

Fair noodles, everybody

[ebb]

Capt. Epiph,
Yeah, I noticed the mini war on the hiker's pages too - them who swear coke cans make better stoves than pepsi. You gotta love amer-can ingenuity!

Dave insists I look for an old sea swing at marine fleas. Why couldn't one of them be altered to take a soda can alky wick? It's the gimbaling what's needed. Then....
to find the time to fiddle.

[marymandara]

At that rate--

There was a less expensive version (not as nice, but I think the same size) that took a sterno can, too. They're probably nearly free at the SeaJunk store and so forth, and would take less adaptation.

SmokyStinkyDavid

[epiphany]

Senor Mister Capt Ebb -

I've been thinking on the gimballing, and my thoughts have swung this way and that.

First decision was what material to use. Wood? Easy, but I'd rather not rely on that material to contain and hold a small flaming object onboard my vessel. FRP/composites? Although materials would cost a bit more than wood, and a nicer-looking end product could result, alas, this material too would have a propensity towards fueling a fire of the non-cooking type, and is thus inappropriate. So we come to metal...

I have neither a welder, nor any experience welding. In fact, I have few tools at all which would be suitable for the working of hard metals, so that leaves me with one option as far as I can tell: Aluminum.

Now, I was gifted one of the little Forespar Mini-Galleys that uses a 1# propane tank, and it is a handy little devil for making coffee or a can of soup, but shrinks in fear when I raise my pressure cooker in it's general direction. It is constructed of nice stainless steel, but, after a couple of years usage, I can see where spot welds are beginning to corrode in places inaccessible within it's frame. Thus, I think it is not a tool I can or should rely upon for use over the span of many years from now.

Since, however, this was my example, I had been thinking along the preconcieved lines that the gimble needs be a rounded shape, to conform to the outer diameter of my pressure cooker. Considering the various materials and their limitations, though, eventually introduced me to wondering "Do I have to have a *round* gimbal?", and I've finally realized: Why, no, I dont.

A gimbal of a square shape could support a round pot placed within it as securely as a round gimbal.

So, my release from the preconception that my gimbal need be round, my limited tooling resources, and what aluminum stock I have seen locally have brought me to a point where I think I will be constructing a square-shaped gimbal, using aluminum angle iron (misnomer?) stock purchased from the local hardware supermart.

The rest of the project consists of figuring out: what to use and how to construct the rotating bearings for the gimbal, and how to engineer a fiddle within the frame.

The bearings I have not given a lot of thought to as yet.

The fiddle may wind up being as simple as an insert for the frame, constructed to fit a particular pot, just as the burner will be made to fit the heat requirements of a particular meal.

RE: Coke vs Pepsi cans - my original burner for hiking, constructed 4 years ago or so of beer cans (Natural Lite, IIRC - I could not find any raspberry tea cans at that time...), still works, although it is looking dog-eared. I think that the relevant quality of the original can is a point of debate that I'll let others discuss, decide, and divide.

One of my own experiments ("experiments" sounds so much better than "happy accidents") was when I spilled alchy onto the piece of aluminum foil upon which the burner sat. Figuring it would do no harm, I went ahead and ignited the lot.

The surprise was that this small amount of additional fuel about and on the burner caused the "pre-heat" time to be considerably shortened, and I had my blue jet flames in ~20 seconds, instead of the usual 45-60. Since then, I have always used this technique, and plan to incorporate a little splash cup into the gimbal on which the burner apparatus will sit, to allow these faster ignitions. As the boat will be carrying the alchy fuel, and not the sack upon my back, I believe that I can be a little more liberal in the amount of fuel that I use, for the sake of convienence and speedy burning.

Also, a little bit of that fiberglass pink insulation from the attic or around the water heater, when placed inside the burner unit just prior to final assembly, will keep the fuel from sloshing about so readily. This will be a nice, possibly important, addition to the burners built for the boat.

Good Gimballing!

CaptK

[ebb]

CaptK,
you've got it, by George, I believe you've got it!
Round pot in square hole is out of the box innovative!
But the swedes have done it befor us.

Having just been all over the Optimus pages, they have the adjustable gimbals and the adjustable fids, already invented. Ready made. Sturdy.
And me, sitting here huntin & peckin, instead of looking for that raspberry tea can, why, for just 150 bucks more I could have the stove too!

Dave wooden approve, cause it's
new. Uses yer wallet instead of yer brain......

[marymandara]

It's just..I have a teeny brain but a smaller wallet!!!

[ebb]

IF alcohol. BIG if, because of the odor of burning and burned fuel - I can see sitting in the cockpit sometime in the future when 338 is FLOATING and making one of Capt K's burners and altering One of Capt. D's found seaswings to accept it. Imagine a little crank to move the flame up or down, or maybe a flame diffuser can be inserted, used for simmering. In the mean time, check this total out for a single burner Swede:

One Burner Portable Alcohol Origo 1500 - $170
Gimbals 3002................................... - 60
Pot Holder Set..................................- 32
spare fuel Canister............................ - 38
Canister Gaskets (rugs to prevent evaporation)
.................................................. ... - 4
.............................a mere...................$300 - not including the shipping. You can find it cheaper on Sailnet, and also astonishingly more expensive on some marine internet sites, so watch it!

Hand me that rasberry tea can and those sissors.

[Hull376]

Here's a 1960's vintage cast aluminum Sea Swing which was used originally with a can of Sterno. Its been modified as Dave brainstormed a couple of posts back in this thread. Has worked fine--- probably needs a 1/2" coupling about an inch or two long to move the burner a little closer to the pot if I wanted to be fussy about it. This stove already had a hole in the bottom through which a standard Coleman type single burner fit through with no modifications necessary. The assembly is held in place by the nut on the top side of the valve threads. The cut out in the bottom was stock as well, and made a great spot to locate the on/off valve control---- some room for the fingers to get a good grip.

[ebb]

Does look good! Looks simple, nice fotos.....
What the fuel, brain not functioning, methane?

[marymandara]

Very Cool, Kent!

The only Sterno-can SeaSwing I had previously seen was markedly different from the standard SeaSwing stove mount...yours looks to be the same thing as the standard optimus-stove version.

This brings up an interesting possibility I want to mention...the stove itself in the seaswing is a standard Optimus stove, very common, parts still available (although most come from the hardware store)...Force 10 replacement burners fit fine...and I have seen the things sell on Ebay (the stove alone) for 5 bucks! Just search "kerosene stove" or "otimus stove". BTW, those burners come as either Alcohol or Kero (I have 1 of each, Just in Case).

Just to be sure, I dug my SeaSwing out of the coat closet just now and measured...Dimension from bottom of stove mounting flange to bottom of the pot holder is appx. 4-1/2". If yours is of this same size, you could convert to other fuel as needed...or, (Ebb???) you could put an alky one together. The sterno-can ones are probably very cheap, as so little is commonly known about the stoves already that the gimbal/potholder only would likely be real cheap at the seajunk store if they had one! (Ebb, I am sorry that I had forgotten about the burners until now. DOH! The only change is in the burner, you can screw one off and the other on (and swill out the fuel tank a bit) and go right at it.

Also...Force 10 sell a springy-stainless slide-type bracket for the current sorry version of the SeaSwing such as it is; this same bracket will work on the vintage model stoves and are pretty neat as you can have two of 'em (I do) to allow you to mount the SeaSwing securely in it's usual spot and also be able to move it out-of-doors for cooking in hot weather. For that matter, if the Wx was good and a person wanted a hotter burner (for crab?) the fuel/burner could be swapped out easily and no worries of sooting or fumes would be in effect!

These are cool old stoves, really neat items. They are also pretty bone simple and use no special parts to speak of, which is amazing. There is a near-100 percent likelihood that if you buy one it will not work properly, though. Easy to fix, there are a few tricks to it but not many. Just about everyone in the local OarClub clatch seems to have one, so I've gotten to play with just a few and learn from other who have as well. If anyone gets one and has questions, please feel free to ask. If it's useful to me or to others too, then it's valuable knowlege, but if it's not used it just becomes worthless trivia I am clogging my last dozen or so remaining brain cells with!

Best,
Dave

[commanderpete]

How much should you expect to pay for a vintage Sea Swing? My boat came with the mounting bracket but not the stove.

I looked on ebay once or twice. Saw a cruddy beat-up one go for $80. Seemed a bit steep.

[marymandara]

I usually see them --when I do--for around 50.00 as a beater or 75.00 for a good one at the seajunk stores. The aluminum will inevitably be black and the brass very ugly...and the pump may not make pressure. The pump is rebuildable with Viton rubber O-rings from the local industrial bearing shop, BTW.

I have a very cherry one that I managed to find as 'New Old Stock'. I do not want to admit to how much IT was! Suffice to say I pretty much could've bought that Origo setup Ebb was looking at...

Sometimes you will see one with a leaky tank, usually right around where the burner attaches (from repeated bending due to rough handling or careless storage). These can be repaired easily by silver-soldering (if you happen to know a jeweler, you will get a super-bang-up-job done!) or if the tank is really thrashed you may want to just buy another optimus stove off of e-bay.

That old Optimus is sort of the VW Bug of stoves in terms of simplicity and repairability.

Meguiar All-Metal does a pretty good job on the aluminum, and brasso does a great job on the stove itself. Just don't use the brasso on the Aluminum parts, it'll etch!

Also...the thumbscrews are often missing from the bracket, which is an easy fix---take a look at the pic I put up of my friend Tom's stove in his Albin Vega 27...that's a standard thumbscrew from the hardware store holding the bracket and it works great! I did round over the tip of the screw a bit for him, but it worked OK without, too.

I see Peter is dreaming of hot drinks from just inside his comp'way, huh???

Dave

[marymandara]

Another possibility exists for a gimballed stove which I should also mention:

My friend James Baldwin has built several gimballed one-burner stoves over time that will hold a 10" fry pan (!) or a large pot, and also will use small LPG bottles if desired (his standard setup is kero). He has just set himself up with a bit of a landbase for the first time in 20-some years, and has facility to manufacture some of the things he has cooked up (no pun intended) over the years, including these stoves. Check them (and the rest of his site) out at www.atomvoyages.com .

Also, James and Mei are presently staying aboard a larger boat they are fitting out for someone which is equipped with both a regular cooker and a one-burner Origo setup just like Ebb was talking about. Probably because they are used to only one burner, they use the Origo sea stove for all their cooking. James reports that it is working out to something on the order of 25-30.00 per month for alcohol fuel as opposed to 3.00 a month for kerosene that they are used to. Cooking times, say James, run appx. 10 percent longer with the alky.

Best,
Dave

[ebb]

Dave,
Please inform Capt James that there is at least one customer in Calif. for his kero/propane single burner. I really like the open wire design, what I can make out of it on his site. I also like the macho size of it, altho an 8" wouild be good too. A larger stove would make some cooking much easier. His stove is THE alternative to the boxy stainless steel space robbers that belong on floating condos with kitchens.

If he flogs plans, I'ld be interested as well. Have access to full shop

With Forespar and Force Ten flat on their faces with their peculiarly useless single gimbaled stoves, and, I think, the real need for a small boat single burner he has developed and has so much experience with - he could have a niche market.

There used to be mini 'export' fabricators in places like Taiwan who would make the parts inexpensively. James could sell an assemble-yourself version for the mechanically challenged. Time challenged is more likely. A right-on, priced right, versatile stove is exactly what the small boat sailor needs. Make it so.