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Thread: Tiller Discussions

  1. #46
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    Looks original to me . . .

  2. #47
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    FWIW,

    That is the exact same casting I have on Faith.. (mine is a bit more wallowed out).


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by c_amos View Post
    FWIW,

    That is the exact same casting I have on Faith.. (mine is a bit more wallowed out).
    Craig, If by wallowed you mean the holes becoming oval, mine has done the same thing creating a fair amount of slop in the tiller/rudder connection. So I am planning on drilling it out to the next bolt size. Anybody done this?

    Tim

  4. #49
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    Tim,

    I have both that problem and the problem of the sides of the fitting being bowed where the play has widened them out. This problem has been discused in this thread. You might wanna take a look at that link before you take out the drill.


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  5. #50
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    Thanks Craig, I will keep looking through the threads (I have been) It is mentioned about what the other reasons for the play can be and the inherent danger in drilling it out. But I am pretty sure my play is because of the hole shape, and it seems like it is only going to get worse.

    Tim

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Looks original to me . . .
    I stand corrected. I "misremembered" A231-Bill's posted pics as having 2 long tangs (?) with no top. Thanks for posting the thread, Craig, my quick search last night didn't turn it up...
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  7. #52
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    alternative tiller to tillerhead attachment

    Beating a dead horse again, but consider this:

    WHY NOT DRILL HOLES THROUGH THE TOP?

    Then you will clamping those laminations together.


    If your 'original' is like my original you have only 1 5/16" width for the wood in the tillerhead. It would be better then to use all the wood you have in the tiller coming out the bottom of the fitting. Two - 2 1/2"?

    [Imco bigger bolts will weaken the bury of the tiller even more. There's plenty of over kill in the design of the tillerhead. Once you fit the end of the tiller into the metal it's not going anywhere. The bolts are there only to hold the tiller in place. There's hardly any way you can cinch the sides tighter to the tiller. You want to fit the wood in tight.

    If you insist on drilling out the side holes in the tillerhead to make them round again I would use sleeves in the holes, and use the same 5/16" bolts. You will risk weakening the tiller even more with larger bolts. It's really impossible to believe that the holes in the massive sides (plus 1/4") got so out of round that they would still not have enough integrity to work good enough. Maybe holes in the tiller but certainly not the bronze!]


    I would seriously consider putting 5/16" bolts in through the top.
    You could square the holes by filing and use easy to find silicon bronze carriage bolts for their nice round top. Actually the install would look better. Except, of course, for the empty side holes - maybe glue in wood plugs? Or weld them closed and file them smooth. Little Gull's will be this way.

    I will use oversize washers.
    OR actually I have some 1/8" bronze strip left over from another project, which I'd use in one length instead of washers underneath. Still use split lock washers, This will help support the wood against the time when the tiller is pushed down too far by someone one leaning on it. This is probably why the delamination started in the first place. Not to say the 3 bolt zipper through the lams wasn't the cause!

    Even if you put 3 bolts in a line through the top (which is hard to avoid!) the zipper effect is nullified by the immovable sides of the fitting. In fact lining the three bolts up would look good.

    I would prep the 5" at the end of the tiller as in ebb's post above, and put it in the metal as snug as you can using bedding compound.

    If bronze is too expensive, you can always use 316L stainless.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
    If there is objection to this idea I would really like to hear it.
    Last edited by ebb; 05-12-2008 at 07:55 AM.

  8. #53
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    The bolt I mean

    Because this thread is discussing the tiller head at large I thought I would clarify the worn hole I was mentioning.
    Attached Images  

  9. #54
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    Hi , from a new member. I think it's best to not enlarge this hole for a larger bolt. Basicly 2 reasons: 1 There is not enough of a shoulder around the hole for a larger bolt. 2 the shaft head piece and the tiller mount bracket has an interference fit which is what should control free play, the bolt is merely the hinge and attachment point. If you should enlarge the bolt to control slop it will right up to the point where the tiller mount will break out by the holes youv'e enlarged. You will have all the tiller leverge on the bolt holes running through the tiller mount and not shared evenly over the shaft head.
    In your first picture the wear is evident in this area and needs some shiming. Maybe this helps. Carl

  10. #55
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    tiller to head bolt

    Carl's observation is correct
    in my opinion also.

    We have talked about the problem on another thread.
    I agree that the hinge should not be drilled out for a larger bolt.
    That would take too much meat away from the small amount of bronze in this area. If wear happens again, that would be the end of the fitting.

    About the only thing I can think of that would help (out side of the volumes of words on the other thread) would be to use heavy tight fitting washers under the head and nut of the hinge bolt. That might take some of the play out. It may be necessary to use smaller washers and drill them out to exactly 3/8".

    Since this part of the hinge is exposed and accessible, a crafty skipper might spot weld (MIG, TIG or OXY) the washers on to the tiller fitting. Just a couple touches.
    If it works (tightening up the hinge slop) then that's cool.
    If it doesn't then grinding the washers off is no big deal.

    Putting weld metal in the hole and redrilling for exactly 3/8" is perhaps the right way but you'd need a genius to do it, And be careful the hole was put back exactly where it was originally. Common silicon B. wire or rod would be a upgrade in filling the hole.


    Keeping the whole tiller/rudder assembly tuned and tight will make it last.
    Renew the O-rings to keep the shaft tight.
    Make sure the tiller head fits well. You may have to add shim material inside the cup of the headfitting that engages the shaft.* It should be snug.
    Custom file a key out of larger key stock for the keyway so that it fits tight. So that it fits the slot in the head and the slot in the shaft which may have worn wider and more V shaped. The head fitting should not move on the shaft. Permatex(?) has a specific filler goop just for this not so uncommon problem. This clunky 5# tiller assembly is cantilevered off the top one inch of ruddershaft. Rather unfair disadvantage, isn't it? This connection moves 2 1/2 tons of antique boat through multiple tons of wind and water levered by a questional piece wood in the grip of an excited human. This minimal connection should be as perfect as we can get it.
    Find this older thread on this subject for other great tips. I believe it is 'bill231' who has put a couple of set screws into opposite sides of the 'cup' that's over the shaft. In addition to the problematic key and keyway that makes a three points anti-movement lock. Great innovation! But, I think Bill said, you have to remember the set screws are THERE!
    You may have to clean the nano space between the ears that clamp the head to the shaft. There's minimal clamping.

    By the way, notice that one ear in the HEAD has a bushed hole.** The other side of the pair is threaded. The idea is to put the bolt into the non threaded side, screw it into the opposing hole and cinch the ears tighter using the head of the bolt.
    When closely looking at the 'bolt clamp' you'll notice that the skinny side is also thinner than the opposite side out to the diameter of the cup - which is very obviously much fatter so as to be non-movable. When ready and on the shaft, a pair of big ViseGrips with the teeth taped might be used to squeeze the cup - THEN turn in the bolt to hold it. Without the bolt in you can carefully open the clamp with a chisel. All this, of course, with the fitting upside down on the work bench.


    Nothing should move when installed - except

    the rudder back and forth
    and the tiller arm up and down

    Everything else should be tight and that will keep the wear down.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________
    * A previous thread had discussion about using shim stock to furr out a sloppy tillerhead. One skipper used or found pepsicola can used for the purpose. Purists can find shim stock at McMasterCarr. 316 and 260 brass. Brass might conform better to the hole being 1/3 the hardness of the s.s. Average price $10 for an 8"X12" sheet. Look it up. I don't know how you figure what thickness you want. One sheet will give you 8' of usable 1" wide (the tillerhead cup is 1" deep) shim material.
    Try the cola can for size, 1 - 2 -3 wraps, get the thickness with the micrometer, then get the real stuff. Better not to wrap aluminum around the top of the rudder shaft.

    **You'll notice that the side with the bushing is narrower in width. Side with the threading is thicker. The thinner side was probably meant to be pulled over towards the thicker side. The bolt no longer can function on my tiller head because the threads have been distorted by near futile tightening. It's a 1"L 5/16" full threaded bronze hex bolt. Gonna have to keep a few extras.
    Last edited by ebb; 05-16-2008 at 04:28 PM.

  11. #56
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    with a sigh of acceptance

    Thanks All, I guess I will not risk drilling out the holes unless I have another fitting in hand. (Which of course if I did I would just put it on)
    I had read the other threads but since I didn't see what I wanted I kept hoping

    I did consider filling and redrilling, but then again the risk factor makes me shy away from that idea.

    I will try some of the interim remedies suggested as I really don't like the slop in the steering.

    I am about to order a trailer and later in the summer I will be moving her up here from Sausalito and at that time look into a permanent solution.

    Tim

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim D. View Post
    Because this thread is discussing the tiller head at large I thought I would clarify the worn hole I was mentioning.


    I don't have a picture at the moment, but in regards to the worn hole mentioned above, my tiller fitting looks to have some sort of bronze "collars" that fit the inside of the hole and are just the right diameter for the bolts. (Sorry, no pics at the moment) But they work very well, because everything there is nice and snug...

    Also, I'm thinking I'll try Ebb's suggestion and drill through the top of the fitting. I really like his idea of the bronze carriage bolts, so I'll have to pick up an appropriate sized file. I'd welcome any tips as to how to do this with limited tools and little to no expertise.

    My tentative plan is to drill 2 holes through the top at roughly the same location as the 2 outer holes on the sides, then use the existing bolt and middle hole on the side and use it to keep the sides of the fitting secured.

    As I said, "tentative", any and all suggestions/tips welcome!
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  13. #58
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    Mike, that definitely had to be a machineshop fix on the hinge bolt.
    They would have milled out the egg shape holes and pressed in the bushings that are probably pretty snug for the bolt. As it should be.
    It's really very nice.

    On the tiller attachment, that sounds pretty good to me, what you are thinking of doing. If possible see what some others think of the solution, especially those who can think outside the box.

    The extra holes will lighten the fitting a bit. To the good.

    However if the cosmetics bother you, the holes can be filled and ground off (and redrilled out later if need) Welding is easy and 655 forgiving. You don't have alloy changes happening like when you weld with s.s. and aluminum. That's my understanding.
    Last edited by ebb; 05-16-2008 at 10:34 AM.

  14. #59
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    Mike

    an alternate solution might be to wrap the butt of the tiller in one layer of 6Oz cloth to bind the end of the tiller together and re-drill the existing holes.

    I have no doubt just any solution will work.

    cheers,
    Bill

  15. #60
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    tillers now

    Just noticed over on the sailboatowners site that they have tillers for sale.
    They have one S shape tiller with a 9.75" rise. Doesn't look like enough to me for the Ariel cockpit, but what do I know?

    However, on the 'custom tiller' page there is a thumb nail showing the bottom of a custom tiller. It has a thick pad built on of what looks like a dense tropic wood.

    Off the shelf laminated tillers are 1 1/2" wide. Don't know how deep. But deeper will add some overt strength to our 1 1/4" tiller width in the metal. That pad is a great idea if it is glued on there. I'd guess that almost all damage to a laminated tiller comes when somebody sits on it. That pad extending out beyond the through bolts of the tillerhead could be insurance to keep the laminations together.

    Along with a glass wrap. AND vertical bolts!
    Last edited by ebb; 05-16-2008 at 10:57 AM.

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