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Thread: Tiller Discussions

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    Cpete, that's definitely the same design as 338's,
    but not the same animal. It looks wasted.

    You need to have the golden welding rod awarded you to stick bronze. Welding is melting two pieces of similar metals together. It's tricky to do with bronze, I never succeeded in mastering it properly. In fact I had to take my work to a master to have it done right.

    So what tillerhead do you have now?


    [Have you analysed what happened to cause the crack?
    Bronze is soft alright, but a piece of those dimensions would take some force to bend it. It would have to be bent more than once to get that crack. Being a casting, tho, it may only take One bend.

    We have the tiller acting as a lever. So, did the rudder shaft and blade hit refusal (stop hard against something like the hull? Or a rock, Or the Bottom?) - and the tiller was pushed further on? Or was the tiller used violently to attempt to skull the boat?

    Maybe the tiller was down in the cockpit and something came along that pushed against the rudder blade, pushed it too far, and something had to give. That something being the strap or ear on the tiller fitting. It certainly Should have been the tiller to get broke, NOT the fitting!

    Aside from being more cautious next time, next time always different than the last two last times, what precautions are there to take? Rubber stops, a more sophisticated tillerhead?

    If that's the place where the fitting breaks maybe another piece of bronze plate could be welded over this weak point.]

    Better to have the tiller break than the fitting!!!
    Last edited by ebb; 11-21-2003 at 02:52 PM.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    21

    Broken Tiller

    I have some pictures of the replacement SS tiller fitting and one of the drawings for the Vanguard fitting. The Vanguarg fitting is easier to make as the "wings" don't need to be flared out, but a good machinist can do it for you. The first picture is of the side view
    Attached Images  

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    21

    Broken Tiller

    The second picture is the top view Picture was too big.
    See below for picture that replaces this image>
    Last edited by skylark; 11-23-2003 at 07:45 AM.

  4. #34
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    Sep 2002
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    21

    Broken Tiller

    The third one is the Vanguard drawing
    Attached Images  

  5. #35
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    Sep 2002
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    21

    Broken Tiller

    Here's the second one again in a smaller format. Sorry for the large one
    Attached Images  

  6. #36
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    proposed bronze tillerhead improvement

    Capt skylark,
    Great photos. Great photos to work from.

    We can assume that your s.s. strap plate tiller holder isn't going to find itself broken, because it can't get bent like the much softer bronze.

    If some of us salts are going to insist that a bronze tillerhead is appropriate for a bronze rudder shaft then the tiller holder part has to be improved in such a way that the ears do not break off.

    Imagine that the channel (which probably was thought of as an improvement over meer straps) was meant to stabilize the tiller But to stabilize the ears all that is needed is to connect them over the top. Just like the straps. In other words you just continue the channel to the back over the hinge bolt. It would go over the top of the shaft part.

    Then, instead of making the straps even narrower as we see in these photos when they leave the tiller wood and become 'ears,' why not make them wider so that the ears bear against the flat sides of the part that is connected around the top of the shaft when the liller is raised. It might be seen as a modest triangular quadrant shape matching the raising of the tiller with the hinge bolt the apex.

    And in the case of the original Ariel tillerhead, let's make the channel a little wider and a little deeper, and put the carriage bolt attachment holes thru the top of the channel. Of course.

    At the same time the casting could be lightened up, so that the increased metal would not necessaryly mean extra weight.
    Last edited by ebb; 11-24-2003 at 07:41 AM.

  7. #37
    downeaster Guest

    Tiller

    Any advice on tiller replacement for a 63 Ariel? Currently it is just glued together and beyond rough shape.
    Last edited by Bill; 08-20-2006 at 12:47 AM.

  8. #38
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    Sep 2001
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    We've had a few threads on that [now merged with this thread]

    West Marine is charging $130 for a tiller now
    Last edited by Bill; 08-20-2006 at 12:46 AM.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Francisco - or Abroad
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    430
    One of the few projects I've been able to complete...

    I went to a shop where I'd seen a good selection. I knew I did not want the same profile as what I assumed was the original on the boat (the knee buster model) I took the old one to the shop with me to do some shape comparisons and selected one that was a an inch or two shorter and about 3 inches taller.

    I bought the unfinished 'blank' tiller that was lableled as being for a J-24 (like someone else on the board did...) If I remember correctly it was in the 35-45 dollar range. (Luckily, on Sale)

    It was not a bolt-on deal. I had to cut the butt for length, and then cut-in the shape for the tiller fitting top surface & tangs. This touch made it look that much better once installed though - I think...

    I stained a bit dark it as I did not want too much contrast between the light & dark colored stripes. Then I applied about 8 coats of Epifanes varnish. Now it looks like this:
    Attached Images  

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Scarborough, Maine
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    Split Tiller

    Here's an item folks may want to check: I removed the tiller to do some varnishing and found this.

    Looks like this is not the first time this tiller has been installed. I cut off about 6 inches until I got back down to good wood. I guess I'll see how it is to sail with a shorter tiller this season.
    Attached Images  
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  11. #41
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,621

    wholly busted tiller!

    Mike,
    MAN, THAT'S SCARY! Suppose you were going to windward with the rail under?
    That's the problem with tillers laminated horizontally like that.
    Laminations should be vertical, but nobody's figured how to do it.

    That doesn't look like the 'original' bronze tiller fitting like Little Gull has. The fitting has sides like you show
    but it is also connected across the top. A CHANNEL form.

    If your fitting is a channel, it would be fairly simple to have the bolts go through the top, instead of through the side. It should have been done that way originally. Bolts side ways produce a zipper effect in laminations just as you text-book in your photo.

    Off the shelf tillers might be part of the problem too.
    It's not easy to tell what glue they're using, or the quality of the inner laminations.


    When drilling bolt holes through a tiller in any direction they MUST be sealed with epoxy.
    Much like sealing through-deck holes to keep water out of the wood core.
    Drill hole, Q-tip lots of epoxy inside. Or tape one side shut and soak with penetrating epoxy. Drain, let the epoxy set, and redrill if necessary.

    Would be smart to soak the whole end with penetrating epoxy, and when dry mount the tiller into the metal with old-fashioned (NOT rubber) bedding compound, which will also help keep water out.

    If you are making one tiller, make two. Says one boatbuilding site.
    If you find the right one
    (THE best tiller I've seen on an Ariel is Bill's on MaiTai)
    buy a second one.
    Better to have a spare than sailing too short!
    Better to have a spare than an emergency pipe thingy whatzis.
    IMCO.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________
    If the tiller begins to fall apart while sailing - the quick fix could be strapping hose clamps around the tiller and the fitting. Bind it together. Two or three would get you home. Hopefully......
    Last edited by ebb; 05-10-2008 at 08:08 AM.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
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    1,100
    Ebb

    We can't really argue with you about carrying that spare part. After all, a ship without a rudder is...what...lost? I thought somewhere on this fine, fine site it was stated that laminated wood parts are stronger than solid wood parts. So does this one really boil down to maintenance? Quality of product? Luck of the draw?

    Beyond a spare tiller (which I didn't include on the 'spare' list) what would a cruising Ariel or Commander carry as spare parts?

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Narragansett Bay, R.I.
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    597
    Mike

    That break looks familiar.. my store-bought tiller also de-laminated from that spot to about midpoint on the tiller. after i cleaned out the old glue and relaminated with thicked epoxy i haven't seen the problem reoccur.

    cheers,
    Bill

  14. #44
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    Jan 2004
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    Scarborough, Maine
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    I didn't think the wood was up to re-laminating, although, in retrospect, maybe I should have just cut the bad part out a filled with epoxy? Oh well, if the shortened version doesn't work out, I'll have a spare tiller.
    Attached Images  
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  15. #45
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    Jan 2004
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    Scarborough, Maine
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    And here's my tiller fitting. I never realized it wasn't "original" until Bill posted pics of his a while ago. It's bronze, so one of these days I'll have to clean off all the silver paint and get down to the good stuff.

    I suppose, since it is closed on top, it does have the advantage that I could seal the bolts through the tiller from the weather easier and keep most of the moisture away from those holes in the future...
    Attached Images    
    Last edited by mbd; 05-11-2008 at 06:17 PM.
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

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