The 3M Vinyl tape worked nicely. I had it on for nearly a month. Pulled right off without tearing or shredding.
Only problem was the glue is pretty strong. My hull is painted with one-part Brightsides, and a few bits of that lifted off when removing the tape. No problem with the two-part paint on deck. Would be fine on gelcoat.
Nothing to see in this picture. I just thought is was funny the guy had his license plate on upside down
This venerable thread - with posts by skippers sorely missed - needs a boot.
I've been using Epi's clear varnish for small projects, and it's nice. They tell us it is a phenolic-modified alkyd resin and tung oil varnish, a true varnish with UV absorbers. You have to sand between coats. Full name is 'Clear High Gloss Marine Varnish'. CV in the list below.
Wood Finish Gloss AND Wood Finish Matte is a one part FINISH made of urethane alkyd resins and tung oil, and UV protection. You can find on the online Epifanes site why they do not call it a varnish. BUT it acts like a varnish rather than a hard film alternative that other brands make.
I decided to give it a try. TWO reasons: I won't have to sand between coats to build-up the recommended 8 to 12 coat thickness. Second, WF comes in a matte/satin that I will use inside. Wood Finish Matte can be coated over CV varnish. Epifanes msds calls it interior so may not have full UV absorbers. It obviously can be sanded between coats if you miss the 3 day window or want to smooth the work - just like the traditional varnish.
On the exterior the 8 to 10 coat thickness can be built up without sanding each coat using the Wood Finish. And you can make the last coat Clear High Gloss without prep, just pour it on!
The Q&A on the Epifines' Varnish page will answer many of your questions about both products.
I like the versatility. Both varnish and finish are identical in appearance and there seems to be no caution in painting one product over the other - which I'm positive will happen.
The pricing for Epifanes is like that for domestic brands. You can find almost everything they make at their online Maine warehouse. There is a lot of stuff you'll never see listed in other vendor catalogs. You pay their list price and you DON'T pay shipping. Their quart size is 1000ml and gets you almost two extra ounces.
SAVING LEFT OVERS.
Varnish/finish uses air (oxygen) to dry. These coatings DO HAVE SOLVENTS in them.
Clear Gloss: Naptha 42% / Xylene 2%.
Wood Finish Gloss contains 37% naptha.
Wood Finish Matte also has barium sulphate in it.
Saving the expensive liquid left in the can is a long standing forum subject. Opened and resealed varnish thickens and skins over no matter what! Keeping oxygen out when you reseal the can is virtually impossible. Won't enumerate. One hopeful thing to do is to press Seranwrap (polyethylene) down on the varnish surface before putting the lid back on.
A product called Bloxygen can be squirted into the can as you are closing the lid to evacuate the air and exchange it with a heavier-than-air inert gas, ARGON. Considering the price of Epifanes, filling the small space inside with a non-reactive gas is cost-effective. Constantines, Klingspor, Lee Valley, PaintSource, Rockler, Woodcraft.
Liquor stores, some grocery stores carry 'gas blanket' aerosols for squirting into wine bottles and almost anything else you want to keep from oxidizing. $10 max for 75 doses. Look at ingredients, imco should be 100% argon.
ARGON cannot be used on waterbased coatings - nor solvent release lacquer coatings
EPIFANES............500ml...1000ml [CV= Clear Varnish / WF = Wood Finish / WFM = Wood Finish Matte / BTh = Brush Thinner]
Mertons - CV -- 14.75 - 27.35
...............WF -- 16.10 - 29.50
...............WFM - 19.80 - 35.30
...............BTh -- 8.20 - 10.60
_________________________
Epifanes -CV -- 23.56 - 43.66
..............WF -- 25.64 - 47.12
..............WFM - 31.61 - 56.36
..............BTh -- 13.06 - 16.91
_________________________
Jamestwn -CV - 14.99 - 26.99
..............WF -- 18.99 - 32.99
..............WFM - .........- 39.99
..............BTh -- ....................
_________________________
WM ........CV -- 23.99 - 40.99
_________________________
Defender -CV - 17.99 - 24.99
.............. WF --20.99 - 35.99
...............WFM........................
...............Bth..........................
_________________________
Noahs -- CV -- 17.67 - 25.99
..............WF -- 19.38 - 35.34
.............WFM - ...........42.27
..............BTh -- 9.80 - 12. 68
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Last edited by ebb; 02-12-2010 at 09:28 AM.
And with all of the wood on the Commander I have been giving a lot of consideration to what finish to use for all my new brightwork.
While Epifanes is certainly on the list of options, I would like to hear what others think about System 3 LPU clear gloss over epoxy seal coat. Has anyone tried this for the brightwork? Are there any informed opinions out there about how well it would or should work?
The website link...
http://www.systemthree.com/projects-...tdoor-wood.asp
Mertons, by the way, also carries System 3.
This thread covers alot of ground on technigue and coatings.
System 3 didn't invent the 'epoxy first' routine. It was users of Smith's CPES 'penetrating sealer' that got it going in the '70s, I think. The sealer was concocted to seal DIY concrete boats and then discovered by wood workers.
But it's too easy to mix a little xylene into your laminating resin to make yer own (less expensive) sealer.
Would think that System 3's epoxy sealer is similar.
Laminating resin is a loose material and with the solvent will "penetrate' wood just as well as CPES. CPES has alcohol in the formula to chase water (found in new concrete) The present day cold weather version is a great sealer for mahogany. If it is not totally cured Steve Smith says it'll tie varnish on better. It is not often necessary to chase water in mahogany like you might have to on a ferro-cement hull.
On woods like teak and mahogany water-thin sealers like CPES don't 'penetrate' any better than any other sealer. We did experiments, if there is deeper penetration it's in microns.
Sealing with epoxy is now accepted practice for prepping wood before finishing. There are them that don't like the idea. Each to their own.
I wet out the wood with the shop epoxy mix and dry it off with rags or towels. That raises the grain. Smooth with sandpaper and douse again with the sealer, and either use it as a 'tie coat' or let it set up. Then sand for varnish. Skip the 50/50 and proceed with the normal varnish schedule, starting with thinned coats.
I like System 3's waterborne epoxy primer. I had trouble with their structural epoxy T-88. Conceptually System 3 is right-on and they are on the our side, I believe. Much more so than their steroid competitors.
Practical Sailor doesn't even know they exist!
I am sure that if you use anybody's (NO SOLVENT) 100% solids epoxy as a sealer you can put anybody else's brand finish over it. Including waterborne and housepaint. If you add your own solvent to the epoxy, you have to be sure that all of the solvent is dissipated before recoating with anything - including an epoxy product.
A recent Practical Sailor brightwork test really devalued Smith's 5 Year Clear Coat.
I have heard and read a lot of sentiment AGAINST 2-part clear finishes.
If you have to barewood to refinish you will wish you never used it. Every once in a while even old timers will take the bait and use a "BRISTOL FINISH'.
And have a hell of a time getting it off when water gets under it.
I think it's pretty well agreed that the Dutch have taken traditional varnish to the next level. Brightwork will always require maintenance. Make it easy on yourself. Getting an extra year out of a plastic finish isn't worth it. MY OPINION. Informed? I don't know.
Last edited by ebb; 02-10-2010 at 10:54 AM.
Your last sentence made me chuckle but I believe you are informed about a lot of subjects when it comes to these boats.
So would you like to give me another opinion? Many of my sailing friends think Cetol is the only way to go in the Florida sun. And the natural teak version does not look bad like all of the other versions. It also does not protect as well because it does not inhibit the UV rays as well. But it is easy to repair when the finish starts to degrade.
You obviously chose Epifanes for a variety of reasons but I would like your take on the pluses and minuses of Cetol natural teak versus Epifanes.
BTW are you using the epoxy sealer under the Epifanes?
A page or two from a professional or two on the subject of Epifanes, Cetol and 2-parts.
google> Refinishing
www.mobilemarineservices.net/id2.html
I've been reading several things like that and there are a lot of opinions out there.
I am not fond of the look of Cetol and your point about the 2 part finishes is a valid one. And I plan to make most of my brightwork easily removeable for refinishing. So Epifanes is looking more and more likely.
You did not answer my previous question when I asked if you plan to apply epoxy prior to the Epifanes.
I second Ebbs sentiment above...Originally Posted by ebb
Traditional varnish (I swear by EPIFANES clear) - or nothing at all... (but Teak oil) me thinks. Especially in tropical climes.
The tropics are VERY tough on finishes... the epoxy will NOT be impervious, it might provide a bit of longer life at first, but you will need to refresh at some point... - Especially with new wood. I'd prefer to have the ability to spot treat the finish where the natural oils might bubble up. This will be hard to do with hard plastic in the way...
Sun covers for brightwork the most effective protection, and ARE a MUST - even in California.
Comanda ONE FO SEVEN suh.
Whether to put an epoxy base under Epifanes Wood Finish.
I would say YES because I seal all wood on the boat. In my brain epoxy is a prep for primer.
However I have no experience with the particular coating. Though I am going to use it because there are better things to do than sanding.
But there is so much BS about varnishing, whom do you trust?
I don't know if the current respected master Rebecca Wittman, who has two paperbacks on the subject of yacht brightwork, don't know if she recommends it....
Epifanes clearly doesn't make epoxy a first step. But then they also don't mention argon and tell you to flip the can when you store it. So you end up with skin in the middle of the can instead of on top.
They also say a badger bristle brush is too expensive and is probably phony. China bristle is the only way to go. THAT sounds OK.
CPES is recommended as an epoxy sealer for varnish work by Steve Smith because it allows 'the wood to breathe.' But he doesn't explain how the wood continues to breathe under 8 coats of whatever finish.
I don't know where I stand on wood breathing.
Talking about water vapor of course. If wood breathes....FINE....if it doesn't....FINE!
When I prep the precious mahogany coaming and rail pieces before installing them on the boat I will seal ALL sides of each piece with epoxy sealer, including the screwholes. Probably have 6 of the 8 coats of WF also all round! Will certainly try to curtail that wood from huffing and a puffing. Epoxy makes a better neutral surface for almost anything to stick to. It's another layer of wood protection against water, mold, rot where sides of the wood are hidden. Can see epoxy as making a harder, tougher surface to build a finish on.
Think I'll follow the rules and regs of Epifanes Wood Finish. Skipping the 50/50 dilution of the finish. Do 25/75 on the epoxy sealer to start, then a 5/95.
What I read doesn't lead me to think of it as a polyurethane finish, OR a Cetol. WF is varnish, another kind of varnish. Varnishing wood on a boat is a dumb thing to do. It needs all the help it can get.
Last edited by ebb; 02-10-2010 at 11:56 PM.
I found these two pages very helpful. Always have admired those old Gar Wood speedboats.
Ben
http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/buffing.html
http://www.vintageraceboatshop.com/Varnishing.htm
First - Hi Rico thanks for your thoughts...
The problem with teak oil in my area here is that you need to reapply about every 60 days. When I finally finish my restoration I want to sail as much as possible and not spend all my time during my 9 month sailing season doing maintenance. The plan is to pull the boat for the 3 months in the summer when sailing just is not fun with all the thunderstoms every day and bring her home to the shop. I will do my annual maintenance during that 3 month time frame and if the Epifanes needs work I will do it then.Traditional varnish (I swear by EPIFANES clear) - or nothing at all... (but Teak oil) me thinks. Especially in tropical climes.
I am 100% on board with you on this one Rico. And I am lucky that my wife has a sewing business (she does custom window treatments) and the equipment to make me all my canvas work. The very first project I want her to make is a cover that will protect all of the brightwork and go from just forward of the mast to just past the aft end of the cockpit.Sun covers for brightwork the most effective protection, and ARE a MUST - even in California.
Next - thanks Ebb for your reply...
I now plan to follow your suggestions and seal the wood with epoxy and then apply 6 or 8 coats of Epifanes. As long as I stay on top of the maintenance each year I think I will get the best bang for my time spent with this route.
And finally - Ben
Thanks for posting the articles. I enjoyed reading them and seeing the pictures of what can be done with enough time and effort. And they also reinforced the epoxy sealer concept prior to finishing.
For my project I think I will do as mentioned above and epoxy seal then apply Epifanes. I will brush all but the last coat on and spray the final coat. I have an HVLP sprayer that I have used many times over the years for my furniture projects. But spraying even with HVLP goes through a lot more finish materials so I will only spray the final coat.
Ben's two resources are great finds
- especially so in their compleatness.
The first will take me into next week to digest ( very rich information)
and the second for the fantastic step-by-step photos.
On a warm-up skim of the articles, the first pro puts at least 3 coats of epoxy on the work as a sealer. He fills the grain completely and sands back to an absolutely smooth epoxy surface. ZERO EXPOSED WOOD. 100% ENCAPSULATION.
I think, that if you can afford the time, effort and $$ it takes to achieve this, in theory this is the better way to go for our knockabout live outdoors Ariels and Commanders.
This provides an important barrier to sanding through to the wood itself with maintenance revarnishing and touch-up.
Can't see what's wrong with this concept and (with a little more worrying about it....suffocating wood!) I will go to the extreme of completely encasing brightwork in epoxy before varnish.
Whatever number of epoxy coats it takes. It eliminates solvent cut coats, laying the Epifanes on directly from the can. Exciting!
Imco the full recommended schedule (8 coats?) of Epifanes should still be adhered to - because it is the number of layers of UV absorbers that provides protection for the wood. Each layer we assume adds 12.5% of the 100% UV protection of 8 coats.
In Florida and the tropics Epifanes will tell you to put on 10 or 12 coats.*
It looks like this method makes the seasonal maintenance issue a piece of frosting.
It's the UV absorbers that protect the wood we are replenishing the finish with.
We still use solvent in cut coats of epoxy on the mahogany. Final encapsulation (assume 2nd or 3rd NO SOLVENT coats) can be smoothed on with a cheap foam brush or roller, with sanding between. Hopefully you use a no-solvent laminating epoxy for this.
The shop with all the pictures uses a Petit sealer - which is two thirds solvent. And the MSDS reads like the stuff is a highly thinned varnish - rather than plastic. This (like CPES which imco is also 66% solvent) does not make a "barrier" coat. It's merely a sealer. That's OK. But only for boats that live most of their lives under wraps or in a garage - and never need those added maintenance coats.
H M M M M ....Two coats of aluminum paint on the mahogany would work,,,,and it's shiney!
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
*I think most people when they come upon the epoxy sealer thing aren't really sure the varnish SYSTEM will stick to the epoxy. Varnish is glue. It'll probably stick to other things besides wood. Epoxy is a glue. It sticks to a lot of things with major exceptions. Epoxy, if it's not out-gassing, has a raft of coatings that like to stick to it. It is the prime coat for all paint systems used on a boat. When cured it is inert. When grit sanded the tooth will mechanically lock on any number of coatings.
Thinned varnish pre-coating of raw wood is meant to insure subsequent multilayers layers are attached to the work. HERE IS WHERE OBJECTION HAPPENS between old school and new. There are woodfibers holding the varnish on, initially..... Yeah, but what's holding one coating of varnish onto another coat of varnish?
Scratches. And varnish stickiness. With the notable exception of Epi's Wood Finish, you must scratch the previous cured/dry surface.
Haven't heard of a chemical reaction taking place between one coat of Varnish and the next. Varnish sticks to prepared surfaces even if they aren't varnish.
The Q&A on the Epi's Varnish page explains the phenomenon of Wood Finish sticking to itself without prep sanding.
If you got this far, maybe you should check it out.
One thing more:
Downloaded to STUDY SteveSmith's three decade old four page directions for using CPES as a sealer under varnish. Nowhere does he say why ANY epoxy sealer makes a better base for varnish than anything else, nowhere! I guess it's sumpin we dumasses sposed to know. Maybe THAT'S WHY we have this continuing controversy. It's appears to be an unsubstantiated assumption by everybody including the experts.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................
WAY LATER EDIT: Smith&Co Clear Penetrating Epoxy CPES has been known to amine blush - or produce a strange greasey surface after given time to set. I began using the fast hardner 'cold weather' CPES version, any season, had it set up perfect every time. If you are prepping wood for paint or varnish, wash the cured surface with warm water & dish detergent - and rinse - be certain your next coats wil stick. NO solvent works to remove epoxy amine blush, only water.
Last edited by ebb; 01-25-2015 at 03:08 PM.
I recall that epoxy under varnish is a frequent topic of discussion at the Woodenboat forum. You'll find hundreds of opinions on the subject, but no consensus.
You can also read thousands of opinions on the best wood treatment, but no consensus.
Choose your poison.
Longevity is the most important factor, but there doesn't seem to be a scientific benchmark. You're left with manufacturers claims and anecdotal reports.
The urge to find a miracle cure is irresistible, even for me. Since I can't figure out what lasts the longest, I sometimes think about what goes on the fastest.
Obviously, the job goes quicker if you can apply multiple coats in a day. For my latest experiment, I used Epifanes Rapidcoat/Rapidclear. You can apply a new coat about every 5 hours without sanding between coats.
I brought the cockpit coamings and trim strips home to refinish. The Rapidcoat is rather dark, especially compared to a clear varnish like Epifanes.
I put on 6 coats of Rapidcoat and 6 of Rapidclear. I don't know how long it will last. I'll probably never know, since I put 2 coats of regular varnish on top of all that. I had run out of Rapidclear and was putting maintenance coats of varnish on some other pieces.
Unfortunately, you'll never find an agreement on what product, or class of products, works best.
Give some thought to trying to arrange the wood so you can do both sides at once, to get the job done quicker.
For the coamong boards, I passed a long eyebolt through a hole at each end and strung them up from the rafters with string. Wasn't great. They tended to shift and swing a bit. Like varnishing a moving target.
For other pieces I've tried to stand them up with clamps. This hasn't worked so great either. Maybe somebody has a good trick.
Must have been blowing pretty good that day or at least gusting pretty good.
I recently started a subscription for WoodenBoat magazine and was also checking out their forum. And you are certainly right that there is not a concensus on the epoxy under the varnish debate.
For my choice of poison I think the epoxy makes sense. If you look at wood under a very high magnification it is like a bundle of straws. Those straws are what wicked up the moisture and nutrients from the ground to feed the tree when it was alive. They are very good at wicking up moisture. And wood expands and contracts in large part based on the amount of moisture it is taking on or giving off which it does throughout its existence. So I believe if I limit the amount of moisture the wood can wick up (I will never stop it completely) then I can limit the amount of expansion and contraction that eventually causes the finish to fail. At least that is my take on the subject.
I checked out the Epifanes website briefly but was unable to decifer if the rapid coat was a better or not as good of a UV blocker than the original Epifanes varnish. I will need to spend some more time reading more about the two products. I guess in my mind which ever is the better UV blocker will be the choice I go with. Even if it takes me longer to do the finishing. I'm guessing that will turn out to be the original slow drying material.
I tried that way a couple of times - pics are somewhere here on the forum. Same gripes as Pete. Also, I had to hang them upside down, and when I got a little impatient with the varnish, i.e. brushed on too much, the drips ended up on the tops of the coamings where they had to be sanded because they were quite visible.
Then, at A-231 Bill's suggestion, I started doing them this way. I drilled a hole in the top of the 4x4's to accept the bolt from the winch bases. Works pretty good. They're solid enough to brush on the varnish and you can get at all the sides and edges. With the different heights, you can also rotate either of them to get better lighting. Also, with the coamings upright, the drips move in the right direction...
Mike
Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)
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