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Thread: Exterior Wood Finishes

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    FOSSIL OREGON
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    197

    did a search...

    Did the search on combings, and WOW. Now i gotta take mine off and bring em home! It never ends! I think about 10 coats of epifanies will be good. Might have to look into this Bristol Finish though....

    So how about some tips on removal? (probably here somewhere if i dig enuf)I see some screw heads , and some bungs... also some PO holes i want to fill. Any woodworking tips with those to make em blend in? Also, how are the blocks attached to the cabin? Have to do some more poking around.
    Ave M. had cetol everywhere, even on the winches! Has to go.
    wet willieave maria

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Central NJ, Raritan Bay
    Posts
    114

    Musical interlude.....

    Avast,

    The coaming blocks on Adele M are attached to the cabin from the inside with four long wood screws through the cabin exterior wall just aft of the deadlights. A few years ago I laminated up some new ones to duplicate the old fossils which were rotbound. Some of the most complex angles I've ever worked with, but they came out OK. If I had to do it again, I would just make up a simple right angle return like some other captains have did and be done with it already.

    Captain Ebb: Randolph Scott - Ain't he the father of ragtime jazz? And that Sepia fellow, he was that tall robot in the Starwars movies, nes pas? I ain't no kiddie; heck, I got neckties older than my Ariel. I just can't remember where I put 'em.......

    Carry on....
    ()-9

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    Over the years I've used varnish, then Cetol, then Bristol Finish, and back to varnish.

    CETOL

    I think it looks O.K. I used to get many compliments on my beautiful "varnish" during the years I used Cetol. It looks much better on light woods such as Philipine mohogany than it does on dark woods like teak.

    You need to use both the base coat and the gloss topcoat. If you keep putting on layers of the base coat it will look muddy. Go with 3 coats of base and 3+ coats of gloss.

    I never tried Cetol Light, which has less pigment. However, the pigment is probably the UV protection.

    The only real benefit of Cetol over varnish is that you don't have to sand between coats. However, I eventually decided that this was no great advantage.

    First, you don't really have to "sand" between coats. You just need to give it a quick rub with a Scotchbrite pad and wipe it with a tackcloth. This can't possibly take more than a few minutes.

    Second, you WANT to "sand" between coats, no matter what product you use. You need to rub out the dust, bugs, runs, etc. that get onto the surface overnight. Its the only way to get a superior finish.

    BRISTOL FINISH

    The stuff sounded great. "Multiyear performance." No sanding. Best of all, you can apply multiple coats in a day. I could do all of my brightwork in a weekend. I took the wood off the boat, stripped it down, and put on 8 or 10 coats of the stuff.

    Couple of things about Bristol Finish.

    1) Its expensive

    2) The fumes are deadly. Need a respirator.

    3) It dries almost instantly, no going back over it. You need good brush technique.

    4) I think the color is a little yellow.

    5) Its very finiky. I was doing 16 pieces at once, indoors. Two pieces came out badly after one of the coats--the two closest to the window. I fixed them, but you might have more trouble using this stuff down at the boatyard.

    Nevertheless, I was pretty happy after I finished.

    A few months later the stuff started to fail. It didn't lift or peel. It just started to....disappear. The problem began at the tops of the handrails and coaming boards, which are most exposed to sun, and spread. I touched it up for a while, which is not convenient since you have to mix up a batch of the 3 part product. Eventually I gave up and stripped it all off.

    I've since read a number of reports on the internet from people who are very unhappy with Bristol Finish. Their complaints to Bristol Finish were met with hostility. They'll just tell you it was applied improperly.

    In my case I followed the instructions to the letter. I applied it under ideal conditions indoors.

    To be fair, I've also heard some glowing reports from people who've used it.

    You have to decide whether you want to risk it.

    VARNISH

    It really is gorgeous stuff. Like brushing on pure maple syrup. I go with the Epifanes High Gloss.

    Longevity seems about the same as with Cetol. I don't know if they've been tested side by side.

    I just don't feel that varnish is any more work than Cetol. If I thought there was something better and easier than varnish I would use it.

    I'm not sure why this subject engenders so much passion. People defend their choice of product with a nearly fanatical devotion.

    Actually, I think proper technique is far more crucial than your choice of product. The most important thing is keeping up with it.

    Brightwork is part of what seperates our boats from all those floating clorox bottles out there.
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    Last edited by commanderpete; 11-09-2004 at 06:33 AM.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Manchester, MA
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    151
    Regarding removing anything left on your coamings: I have used a heat gun with great success on my grabrails. I bought the cheap one from Harbor Tools but you can go first class if you want. Warm the varnish up and gently scrape it off. It's like magic.

    8 coats of epiphanes or z-Spar Flagship will make your heartstrings twang. Iused red mahogany filler/stain underneath and it worked well. Cleanliness is everything.

    Ebb.....How do you keep your winch stands looking so good??
    John G.
    Valhalla
    Commander No 287

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
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    1,100
    C-Pete,

    There you go flaunting those rub-rails again! When, man, when do we get to hear the story. Also, I must ask, can I see the inside of Grace's toe-rail in a current picture?

    'Enunimous'

    P.S. I have no idea who this Tony G character is...

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,621
    Hmmmm....interesting whatr you say, C'pete, about Bristol Finish. I would urge anybody who's looking into this to check out the MSDS, and since it is the company that provides information, double the bad parts. I'm persuaded not to use it now. Solvents are the real free radicals in the modern health horror department. Health depends on just how much your immune system can tolerate. And if you are trying to boost yours, like I am with pills and potions, then you know you are already in trouble.

    Can't remember how volitile Cetol was, but it is marketed by a company called Sikkens, which might tell us something. Remember that danish teak oil called Deks Ole (?) man, that would knock you down too. I might be looking for a waterbourne finish when 338 gets made up. And Z-Spar Captains varnish you religously had to add, and keep adding as you painted, that potent and pepperminty T-10 to every pot of paint. Think I got high on that stuff.

    A lot of good ole chemicals are banned in California, but it ain't no problem getting any lethal concoction from the underground. Tin bottom (the antifouling the Navy uses and that creates a zone devoid of life under your marina berth), for example, is just as available as Trinidad, and cheaper. Hasn't a floor product company broken into the marine market with water cleanup no Voc urethane finish? Maybe someone should try Zar on their coamings!

    Whatever system, you should use their paste filler on mahogany. With regular varnish anyway no matter how many coats the pores will never fill and flatten out. Filled wood means less coats for that smooth sexy sheen.


    Don't know what to tell ya, John, the winch mounds have never been touched by me. Must be why they look so good. But the boat is under a tent (most of the time - winter's coming!) A good bit of advice therefor is to make up some of those blue Sunbrella antimacassars you often see on powerboats. Real varnish (you're nuts to do it!!) should particularly be protected from sun and rain with a coverpoo.


    www.epifanes.com/quanda.htm

    will give you longwinded (Scott and ebb style) advice on varnishing, especially prep. Guys are right here, Epifanes has the best rep and is most likely being used on all the gorgeous yachts you see.
    Last edited by ebb; 10-27-2004 at 07:22 AM.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,621

    Epifanes

    That ugh in the last post doesn't work. So get on their site and punch the Q & A bar. E. is very much a traditional varnish with all the curtaining and bubbling problems spar varnish has. Varnish is probably formulated for grizzled chain smoking professionals who've spent their life breathing solvent fumes and learning how to barely control the syrup they spread on wood. It's a conspiracy in providing employment for yard workers.

    You can check on how good the guy is by running your fingers along the underside of a rail to feel for any bumps there.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    FOSSIL OREGON
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    197

    got the coamings home

    Wasn't too hard to remove them, but i did have to crawl in under the cockpit to reach the fwd. bolts. Kinda felt like winney the poo stuck in rabbits hole. Thought i might be there till i lost about 40 lbs.! Thought about calling the xo on the cell to come and fetch me out, but it was out of reach in the cabin! All the time, the wind was howling about 35 knots, and biggest waves i've observed on the river. Figured out why they put in all the dams--keeps the water from blowing back up the river to Lewiston! Good day to stay in port and work on her.

    Also removed my monster winch pads, with all the hardware/winches. Never had a winch apart, but am about to. So what are the recommendations for servicing Barlow winches? I've seen something somewhere about dismantling winches and greasing them up.

    So now with the wood removed, sure looks like a good time for some deck painting. It never ends!!! Will have to wait for spring and warmer weather for that project. Might take that long to get it ready.

    Hey, and while i'm on here, Christmas is just around the corner, and i still have a bunch of Ariel t-shirts.....
    wet willieave maria

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    Here's something on Barlow winches. The company is out of business.

    http://www.arco-winches.com/barient.html

    There is probably a schematic for your winch somewhere on the internet.

    You don't need a "winch service kit" they sell. You probably already have the proper grease and oil, and an old toothbrush. Go easy on the grease.

    You ordinarily want to replace the pawl springs, but you can re-use them if they happen to be an unusual size.

    It's a simple procedure to service them, but its easy to forget how they go back together. Its better to do one at a time for that reason, so you have the other as a guide.

    Say willie, somebody once told me you can tell the wind direction by looking at birds and cows. Birds stand facing the wind and cows stand with their butts in the wind. Any truth to the cow part? Only cows around here are in the grocery store.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    FOSSIL OREGON
    Posts
    197

    winter sailing

    Went down to the boat today, with plans of taking off the stern railing (pushpit? is that what it's called?). It was just tooooooo nice to stay tied up.
    After about half an hour of standing on my head in the laz (i can't spill either) decided it was time to get creative and figure out how to rig something up to take the place of the winches, as they were sitting at home with the coamings! It was really a 150 day, with wind about 10 knots, but decided that by using the smaller jib, i could route the sheets to the inside blocks, and use the genoa track eyes to put some friction on the sheets, then take a couple round turns and half hitch around the stanchion (can't spell that one either!) on either side, as all the cleats were at home also. Worked ok, wouldn't want to do it all the time though. Ended up holding jib and main sheets and tiller working my way back into the slip, which was fun. Didn't have to row, so that helped! So, after i got that out of my system, the railing removal went great. It has one foot that's busted loose from the leg, so need to get it welded up. I haven't decided if it's stainless or just chromed something?? Have to take to in to the expert and find out.

    Oh, cmdr. Pete.... our cows usually point toward the hay truck in the winter! If it isn't around, then they do point away from a fresh winter breeze. Horses too. And thanks for the great info., on winches, etc. I have to figure out something to hold the shaft, as all i have is a locking handle. Shouldn't be too tough to do, just haven't really thought about it much. Too busy sailing!!
    Last edited by willie; 11-07-2004 at 05:53 PM.
    wet willieave maria

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,311

    RE: WINCH DIAGRAMS

    Hey Bill,

    FYI - West Marine stores usually have a library of schematics of every modern winch and will give you a photo copy of the one you need. Of course they carry repair kits, too.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Posts
    724

    Unhappy EPIFANES Thinner for Paint & Varnish: a cautionary tale

    As stated above, the directions say;

    EPIFANES Woodfinish, thinned 10% with EPIFANES Thinner for Paint & Varnish
    Posting to this old thread, after the requisite search, is to testify to the importance of the word EPIFANES before the word Thinner in that simple sentence.

    DO NOT do AS I HAVE DONE, and substitute WEST Marine thinner!!!!!!!!

    I have now sanded my companion boards three times to bare wood, and wiped with various solvents to remove the traces of the EPIFANES that was laced with West Marine thinner (which says 'for varnish' in the title by the way).

    Apparently it contains mineral spirits, which are haunting my wonderful EPIFANES finish and causing it to; fail to set, gum, and the first time (when it was mixed directly) even to crinkle like a crinkle finish.

    This tale of woe is not offered to elicit sympathy, for I should not have disregarded the directions, but rather as a cautionary tale.
    Last edited by c_amos; 01-21-2005 at 11:06 AM.

  13. #28
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
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    We feel your "EPIFANES." A good cautionay tale . . .

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,621
    Epifanes is great varnish, but it is a system. You have to buy all the parts. GOTCHA. Checkout a very nicely presented Q & A page on their site, has a lot of specific and general info on the art of varnishing.

    Just went past a new marine cataloger site who exclusively stocked System Three products. System Three has specialized for a decade in products less toxic. IE safer, better to breathe and be around. Aimed at the DIY and the amateur. Which is absolutely the ethecal way of marketing potentially dangerous material. Waterbourne epoxies and LPU. I think they're gaining on those who have convinced us that toxic solvents are the holy grail of a 'professional finish.' This is not to imply that Epiphane's varnish thinner is ugly - can't find an MSDS on the net. But it is to point out that System Three's varnish is thinned with plain ole mineral spirits.

    Wish I'ld gotten into their stuff. I would recomend someone take a look at their products and in the forums befor copping out to the campball-soup stuff at yer local 9/11..oh sorry, 7/11 Marine.
    Last edited by ebb; 01-21-2005 at 11:30 AM.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Manchester, MA
    Posts
    151
    To add some of my poor experience to the mix: I have been haunted by dust for years.. I get one good layer of varnish down and come back to see all these particles in the glare of my beeuuutiful piece. I have filtered the varnish and sprayed the air, mostly with little result.

    Last year I was privileged to be given a tour of a really first class shop of a furniture builder. What an eye opener. Anything that generated dust had a suction table pulling the dust into a collecter system. And the finishing room...The finishing room only had two doors. And each door had a large filter in it. The room was kept under positive pressure and we were encouraged not to use the door connecting the finish room with the shop. In the finishing room, they had large spray booths and they sucked overspray up so it didn't wander. Their work comes out looking like a mirror. Of course, they also use a lot of lacquer and shellac which also dry faster, but conditions are the major difference I saw.

    So if I can build this finishing room off the side of the garage........
    John G.
    Valhalla
    Commander No 287

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