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Thread: Exterior Wood Finishes

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    FOSSIL OREGON
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    Exterior Wood Finishes

    HI ALL--

    Thought I'd see if there was still life out there, so will ask another general question. I'm building some companionway doors out of Honduras mahogany, and am having a hard time bringing myself to cover 'um with cetol. Wondering how Waterlox would hold up. Any advice? I'm sure it's been covered before, but haven't found it. Thanks

    BILL HOOVER
    ARIEL #350

  2. #2
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    Oct 2001
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    Olalla, WA
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    Any particular reason for avoiding Cetol? I know it's not perfect, but neither is anything else. A good varnishing (8 coats? 10? 12?) looks the best, will last a long time if maintained and protects the wood very well. It's also the most difficult to get to a flawless finish, the most time consuming and requires the most upkeep. And the days that are ideal for varnishing brightwork are usually days that I would much rather be sailing. I did my new hatchboards (hond. mahogany) with 5 coats of Cetol three years ago and have only had to do annual touchup since. And touchup with Cetol is a breeze. There is a reason they sell a lot of the stuff. Cetol doesn't give mahogany the same orange tint it does teak- it comes out a rich golden brown. If I had to do it again I'd do the same thing.

    Tom
    Ariel 332

  3. #3
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    Sep 2001
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    Orinda, California
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    EPIFANES

    If I remember correctly, Practical Sailor found the Epifanes was the top varnish.

  4. #4
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    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
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    I use Epifanes and would vouch for it. It is a top quality spar varnish with tung oil (no cheap substitute) and heavy with solids (you can feel the difference in the weight of the can). It holds up very well - several years in Great Lakes weather.

    I would consider a polyurethane a No No. It looks nice when it dries, and for a few days afterwards, but then is a PIA.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    With Epifanes they'll say. 'That's a great varnish job you got there!'

    With Cetol they'll say. 'Oh, yer cetol's looking good - how long since you teched it up?' And nobody will know if it's mahogany or teak!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New York City
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    56
    I made Honduran mahoghany, louvered,companion-way doors
    six years ago for my Commander. I finished them with 5 coats
    of West System Epoxy useing their clear, special coating. hardner.
    The doors are completely encapsulated in the epoxy, sanded
    between coats and finished with three coats of varnish which I
    re-do at the beginning and end of the summer and keep covered in the winter
    No problems with this set up at all. Hot,dry,windless days on
    the mooring are ideal conditions for varnishing. If the varnish is
    rubbed through the epoxy shows through as matte, clear finish.
    You can keep a nail polish bottle full of varnish to touch these
    up mid-season. The pale, pinkish color of the wood goes vividly
    red with the application. I like it alot. Cetol can look really gross
    if applied to any thing but new wood, and on teak takes on an
    unnatural orange cast that reminds me of fake car trim from the 70's.
    Clearly useing Cetol does'nt make you a bad person, and if you see
    examples of applications you like, let that be your guide. I recommend
    epoxy/varnish because epoxy seals and sticks to wood better than
    varnish and varnish sticks better to epoxy than it does wood. The varnish is really
    just a nessesary UV coating for the epoxy.
    Cheers, B.
    Commander #215

  7. #7
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    Sep 2001
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    Capt. B.
    Good points.
    The exterior woodfinish war continues in PS (Vol 30, #4) with, IMCO, some good complaints from Steve Smith (Smith & Co, 5 Year Clear) on PS's testing methods. So far as I know Steve was the first to come up with varnish over epoxy - of course he wanted you to use his Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer. I wonder if 5 Year Clear is a one part polyurethane? If it is, after 5 years, you'll have to start from scratch again!
    PS comparative testing seems funky and meager sometimes.
    These varnish tests were done in tiny panels on a single piece of teak. Remember the paint tests done in tiny squares on the side of a 16 foot(?) Boston Whaler? And if I remember the anchor test, it was in a sandy shallow slough doing the pulling from shore. Not exactly your real life conditions, classic "laboratory" testing.

    Maybe PS should factor in reader's polls in their romparisons. Then again, that's what forums are for.

    What West system epoxy did you use? Did you sand each coat as if it was varnish? How does the epoxy level, after 5 coats(!) you must have gotten something like formica? And what varnish did you use, and did it itself have UV inhibitors?

    Since varnish is purely eye-candy. your method of touch up is a great idea. And only varnish gives you that warm feeling.

  8. #8
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    Aug 2003
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    FOSSIL OREGON
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    decisions decisions decisions!

    Good points, all.
    So what about grain fillers? capt. dave mentioned it to me.
    Also, the doors are a raised panel affair, so want to use some good glue. They are still in pieces as we speak, due to some shoulder surgery.

    I've looked at the Epifanes info. on a site, and they say to thin 50%, then 25%, and so on, light sand between coats. Haven't seen anything about grain fillers.

    Now we go from cetol to epoxy, grain fillers, varnish...
    So nobody has ever used good old Waterlox? Been around for about 75 yrs., has lots of tung oil, which the chineese used 700 yrs ago to waterproof their boats.

    Also capt'n Ebb: any more info./pics of outboard well? Still working on ideas to get the lid to close on a yamaha 9.9/remote control. I'm still in awe of the work you've done.
    Last edited by willie; 02-01-2004 at 11:13 AM.
    wet willieave maria

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Bellingham, Wa.
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    173
    No matter how pickled in varnish, wood on a boat goes thru considerable variantions in moisture content and moves a lot more than one would expect! A lot of guys use epoxy to glue, but I don't like it too well as it doesn't move with the part as well as could. My money's on the Poly glues, like Gorilla Glue, etc. . Nasty, stinky, foamy stuff. Actually, the foamy goop is what happens as it cures. Especially on an open-grained wood like mahogany, you don't want it getting on any parts you don't plan on...it will never come out of the grain. Lots of masking is in order! The incredibly strong bond that results has a bit of flexibility, so two parts expanding and contracting at different rates (whether due to material differences or a simple difference in mass between parts of same material) won't break down the joint.

    In grain fillers, there are a couple of different ways to go---either the clear poly fillers, or a traditional laquer-based wood putty that can be thinned with LT to desired consistency. I like the Laquer-based if I have time to allow days for the solvents to gas off well (regardless what it says on the can). Spread on/work in with a bondo spreader, and wait until it is fairly stiff before burnishing off the excess with a piece of burlap...wait until it has had lots of time to harden and offgas fully, and then do your final sanding before varnish.

    Dave

  10. #10
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    EPIFANES ADVICE

    I did some more digging and found this advice from Epifanes:

    FOR TROPICAL WOOD, i.e. TEAK, IROCO, MAHOGANY, ETC.

    Surface preparation

    Wood, especially oily resinous tropical wood, contains substances that may cause problems during and after varnishing, i.e. slow drying, discoloring, blistering and peeling. These problems may be overcome by executing a thorough surface preparation. The wood must be well cleaned and degreased beforehand with a good degreaser or denaturated alcohol. Never use water or products containing water as these may activate substances in the wood fibers. Wood contains moisture naturally. When varnishing however, the percentage of moisture in the wood must not exceed 13-14%. Make sure that the wood is dry. The successful application of clear varnish on exterior teak surfaces has proven to be inadequate. Long term protection of these surfaces may be achieved by applying a two-component isolating coat for tropical wood or by applying a vaporous system allowing the potential acids and oils to breathe through the coating without delaminating the varnish system. EPIFANES Woodfinish is a one-component finish specifically designed for application on these oily tropical woods.

    One-component system

    On bare wood, apply the first coat of EPIFANES Woodfinish, thinned 10% with EPIFANES Thinner for Paint & Varnish. Sand with 320 grit dry abrasive paper.
    After 24 hours curing time, apply at least four more coats of EPIFANES Woodfinish, thinned 0-5%. Allow at least 24 hours drying time between coats. If subsequent coats are applied within 72 hours, sanding between coats is not required. If applied after 72 hours, lightly sand with 320 grit or finer wet abrasive paper.
    Maintenance

    We recommend applying one or two maintenance coats when loss of gloss is noticed. The weather and atmospheric conditions to which the finish is subjected will determine the amount of time between maintenance coats. At least one coat annually should be applied.



    wet willieave maria

  11. #11
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    To acheive an epiphany of glitz, with the least amount of work and prayer, why would I chose anything else? Instead of painting my new coaming boards with house paint I'll baptise them with Epifanes.

  12. #12
    drp Guest

    advice on refinishing??

    Hi - I recently purchased an Ariel that has been sitting outside, uncovered, for six Maine years. Not in bad shape overall, but the external wood is in rough shape - the finish is gone, the wood's grain is open and a bit separated, and the wood is darkened (greyed). What should (can) be done to restore it? Also - the pieces for the cabin hatch are a bit warped and fit in their guides a bit loosely. Is this fit normal, and can the warp be corrected?
    I'm very new to this, so any help/tips/advice would be appreciated!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Olalla, WA
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    71
    Hi
    The wood will usually clean up nicely with a little work. (aka a lot of sanding)
    You can wash it first with TSP to get surface grime off , then a dilute bleach to kill whatever mold is growing then it's time to get out the sander and take it down to bare wood. Much debate over varnish/Cetol/teak sealer for a finish on this site and elsewhere (do a search for all the opinions). My nutshell synopsis 1) Varnish is the most work but looks and lasts the best, 2) Cetol is simple, quick and easy to maintain but lacks the beauty of ten layers of varnish, 3) Oils protect the wood but don't give the shiny, glossy finish some people want. My choice was Cetol. I'd rather spend my time sailing than varnishing.
    Warp in the hatchboards seems inevitable over time. A little looseness is necessary to allow for swelling and getting the boards in and out. If they are too loose or warped the easiest fix is to make new ones.
    Have fun.
    Tom

  14. #14
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    Sep 2001
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    That's good advice on surface prep.

    A couple of photos might help, particularly of any seperated areas.

    First thing to do is remove the coaming boards and take them home. Shouldn't be too difficult unless sealant was used. Give a holler if you run into difficulty.

    I'd like to see the hatch boards too. They could be replacements.

    You might want to cut out a piece of plywood to put in the companionway for the winter so you can take the boards home too.

  15. #15
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    Sep 2001
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    Thumbs down Cetol

    Golly, I've said this befor:
    Cetol looks like Cetol. It was probably named after viseral whale relief. I personally think the smokey caramel look is exceeding unattractive. And is as recognizable as a product on your boat as Mickey Mouse is Disney.

    On the other hand Bristol Finish is bright and up scale as twenty coats on a Herreschoff classic. I saw a folkbote get dolled up this summer and there is no way you can tell that this finish is not varnish. NO WAY, trust me!

    Whether it has the same who gives a damn seasonal recoating schedule I don't know. Look in to it, ok? Three four coats no sanding a day(?) The difference is like technicolor vs black and white. (was gonna say Sepia, but none of you children even know who Randolph Scott was!)

    An Ariel or Commander deserves better than Cetol!

    (this is NOT to say that Cetol is inferior. It's great, I've used it, but it really looks horrible compared to varnish or Bristol Finish on mahogany.
    YAS, That's what we need. More unsubstantiated O pinions!!)
    Last edited by ebb; 10-25-2004 at 06:41 PM.

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