keel voids

[Commander 147]

mbd

The link to Tim M's thread was helpful. I believe the foam in my keel is the same as he had in his but my has been glassed over the top.

bill@ariel231

You have given me some specific things to look for and I will check each one to stop water from coming into the keel.

Commander 227

In this case the water is doing damage. It is causing blisters and the current batch are not the first time. See the attached picture showing where I have started sanding through the bottom paint and barrier coat to see the evidence of a prior attempt to repair the blisters.

ebb

I'm totally on board with what you suggest. I need to get the foam out of the hull and get things dried out so I can stop the blistering and keep this hull from getting any worse.

A question for everybody

Someone else suggested that after I get the old waterlogged foam out of the hull, get it dried and sealed from leaking that I pour in closed cell 2-part polyureathane foam that will not absorb water, will add buoyancy, will fill the cavity so next to no water can reside there. The link is below. I'm torn on this part and would like your opinions. I'm leaning towards not putting anything back in there. Then I can see if any water is getting in or not and not have to guess.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...ct.do?pid=7896

[bill@ariel231]

the two part foam will work just fine (as long as the water entry points are sealed, otherwise you will be repeating the fix again in 5 - 10 years).

if you go the two part foam route... be careful how much you mix on one batch. The stuff expands like crazy. I've used it to create a mould for a large bronze casting with some success. The foam will oil-can the container (or boat) if you use too much at one time. I've seen a small powerboat where the owner used too much, too fast and ended up pushing the deck out of position.

cheers,
biill@ariel231

[Commander227]

Jerry,
Your boat will displace the same amount whether or not there is foam in the keel, so it would only add buoyancy if the boat is swamped and there is not enough there to save her in that case. I am of the firm opinion that there is not a expanding foam that will not eventually absorb water. There has been much discussion on this in the Ensign fleet. People have been replacing the saturated expanding foam flotation from Pearson with new closed cell expanding foam and having their boats gain hundreds of pounds five + years later and suspecting the new foam of absorbing water. Some people now pull out the foam and replace the flotation with 2 liter pop bottles. Also, I can't tell much from the picture, but I would suspect an improper bottom job of causing the blisters before I would suspect water in the keel void. These old girls generally don't have the same problems as the new production boats. $0.02
Mike
227

[ebb]

YES!
ABSOLUTELY!
AND Commander Mike 227 is imco also RIGHT-ON ABOUT YOUR BLISTERS.
In fact because you have observed "blisters" you should do some forensics on what was used to 'repair' your keel.
Polyester/styrene has a distinctive chemical SWEET smell when you grind on it. Epoxy will probably have low odor or a mild toasty smell.

A repair done with polyester (Don Casey notwithstanding) poses its own problems as polyester is not a glue.
Also the user is more likely to have problems with polyester. IE too much catalyst in a mix or too thick layering can cause it to cook and foam/bubble and loose integrity.
Vinylester is a hybrid and is said to stick better. If vinylester was used it will have a sweet smell. What could pass for fairing material on the repair we see in the photo, the brownish/pink stuff. could be a bondo (sweet) or an epoxy filler.
See if you have anything but solid plastic in the body of the repair. No tiny bubbles in any solid transparent plastic you find. Might look behind some of the brown stuff.

"Blisters" are a GEL-COAT problem on boats built after 1972.


Inside you have to be an epoxy genius to keep the foam dry.
If you insist on using the stuff I would go with 4 or 5 pound foam(or heavier if you can find it) because it is stiffer, more structural, and just has more urethane material - ie maybe more water resistance.
Jamestown also supplies to the construction trades. You might ask if they stock a 4 pound foam in a small kit. You will need only a miniscule amount of the kit you buy. You'll have enough to cast your own buoys - as Jamestown suggests!

Besides,
the stuff is toxic to use.
No matter what the label says,
FOAM IN PLACE URETHANE IS NOT CLOSED CELL.
You should find out what the blowing agent is in the two-part urethane you are getting. It's not necessarily AIR inside those bubbles! Also if there is formaldahyde in the formula. Get the MSDS, they may have cleaned up the product finally. Right!

Hey, good luck!

[Commander 147]

Mike (C227) and Ebb

What you two are suggesting sounds likely. The previous owner told me he never had a problem with the blisters until he had the barrier coat done and based on e-mails between us yesterday the filler I found under the barrier coat was done at the same time. I'm not sure what the grey filler is (it's not the barrier coat because I sanded through that to get to it) but I can tell you the pink filler is dang hard to sand. As a woodworker I have sanded bondo many times over the years when I used it as a wood filler and that pink filler is not bondo. The grey filler on the other hand could be. It sands like bondo. The pink filler is like trying to sand a piece of rock so I'm thinking maybe epoxy with silica filler?

[carl291]

I'm viewing your last photo and trying to decipher that repair, It appears the keel void was left with water in it and possibly froze while stored in VT over winter damaging the gelcoat. Or is that just a scrape that was filled with fairing or simply a layer of white paint that you had sanded through'
The void is left open and empty on my Electra, it didn't have the plywood sole over the void and things like winch handles, fishing gear etc. ended up down there, so a cover will be put in place.
I thought of using the expanding foam but that would only be a moisture magnet, or maybe surfboard foam layer of glass more foam layer of glass till filled. I've decided against all this now and simply cleaned out and glass in an inspection port.
Good Luck.

[Commander 147]

Carl

The only gel coat I'm able to sand down to is around the repair area. That is the white you see at the perimeter of the repair. The red filler does not sand at all easy. But you may be onto something also. The gel coat I was able to expose showed a lot of crazing. See photo. I'm now starting to wonder if the foam in the hull held the water that froze in the VA winter and caused the crazing of the gel coat. That allowed water to get in and the repair was done to try and fix that issue????? Maybe????

Notice in the bottom left side of the picture the wet spots where water is leaching out through the hull.

[bill@ariel231]

If water comes out... That is one of the places water is going in. My solution was to remove the gelcoat, drill out the pinholes, fill with thicked epoxy and cover with one layer of 6oz cloth and epoxy. No issues since then. I'm convinced this is the downside of wet foam and freeze/thaw cycles.

Goodluck
Bill@ariel231

[Commander 147]

Well I cut in and started digging out foam tonight and I only had to go down about 6 inches to hit wet foam. The inside ot the keel is all wet which you may be able to see from this photo.

My wife came out to see how things were going and I said so-so. I told her I was getting convinced I was going to have to get the keel dried out grind everything down and resurface the keel to make it water tight again. Then I came in took a shower sat down to post what I had found and saw Bill's post. Seems no matter what I find myself up against there is already someone here that has dealt with it previously. This forum really is a good resource.

So Bill how far up did you go? To the waterline?

[bill@ariel231]

Well..that is a long multi season story.

The leading edge of the keel and the bottom of the keel for a-231 is all new (prior collision damage).

As for places that needed grinding and epoxy resurfacing... That was mostly the keel (in particular the keel void area). There is a lot of variability in pearson's construction of this foamed in area. Early boats like a-24 seemed to be foam only no glass. Late boats are deep in the bilge area (see Mike's A414). Mine (A-231) has a lot of foam and is glassed in by the factory.

My issue with cracks and pin holes is mostly in the area where the wet foam was present. Like you I opened my keel void, cut out the bottom foot of foam, sqeezed out the water and glassed in new.

Over the last couple seasons I have used the spider cracks that formed in the bottom paint over the winter as a guide to locate areas of wet glass that need resurfacing. This was my first season with no issues at all.

So the answer for my boat was most of the keel, other areas as needed.

[ebb]

That crazing looks very regular and parallel. It doesn't look like impact damage, though you may factor in what the extensive original repair was reparing. If it was severe or repeated grounding on something hard then the book may have to be rewritten.

If water was frozen in the foam, I wonder how much pressure was created, The old foam may have been totally debubbled. But not likely. Can you relate the foam fill/ freeze area with the gelcoat crazing on the out side? Do they match?

The crazing looks like classic crazing. No breaks or openings in the cracks.
This is an area of this single-mold hull where spraying gelcoat down into the keel may have gone on too thick. Easy to imagine. Not an uncommon problem. This crazing may have come from the day your baby was born.
It doesn't look like the crazing as the result of flex (pretty hard to do that down there!!)

Looks to me like coarse sanding is in order and some sealing with very liquid epoxy. If I was doing it I'd use laminating epoxy (100% solids no blush, of course) and vigorously SCRUB the liquid in with throwaway bristle brushes - destroy the brushes. WIPE IT ALL OFF with a terry rag immediately and let it go off. Apply a second coat and wipe that off. When set you have sealed the crazing and you can proceed with whatever other system.

If you want a boss barrier, mix a light slurry of fumed silica and epoxy and put it on with a plastic spreader.* I like the bendy green ones. make it as smooth as you can. Now you have something you can coarsely sand for a primer or even West System's 407 fairing compound.


You're correct, that telltale red-brown could be 407 - and as you say it could have been mixed with a lot of fumed silica. Kind of defeats fairing compound's purpose, making it too hard to sand. As you notice the stuff is fine under water.


You know you can tap the hull and listen for dull thuds. That would mean you have delamination. A sound hull has a nice mellow tone. Any single dull area has to be ground down and the white damaged glass/plastic excised completely. I would tap that whole repair area. And tap the hull behind any other crazing you find. Hell, tap the whole boat!!!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________
* Milled glass fibers is a fine powder. If you add it with cabosil (and 407 - because 407 holds the epoxy in suspension - without the fairing compound the coating will sag.) and surface with that you'll end up with armor. Like maybe your DFO did that, because he hated you.! Don't put it on thick.
all imco.

[ebb]

Bill, it's hard to believe that the polyester was so POROUS as to create a gereral weeping??? Or even that it would exit thru the cracking in the gelcoat.
How thick is your hull down there?


Not doubting what you experienced, but one has to wonder what was/is going on with Pearson's laminations on your hull?
Really is suspicious.


I think getting all the foam out and sealing the inside with epoxy and glass fabric - as you did - is the best way to fix this problem. Along with a general barrier coating of the hull.
I'm thinking that there was a third unknown whacko Pearson cousin loose in the factory at night who added that foam in the keel when nobody was looking.

Only other explanation is that is was a special order by a new owner.

[bill@ariel231]

ebb
the side walls of my keel void space were 5/16th or so in the area where crazing and pinholes occured. i don't believe this was the initial water entry point for A-231, but once water got into the foam, a couple freeze thaw cycles got us to the point where the skin in that area was less than water proof.
cheers
bill@ariel231

[ebb]

5/16"?
I've just confirmed that hull thickness with a thruhull on A338!

So much for the OVERBUILT theory of early glass boats!!!


Keeping water from freezing not only in the bilge but IN THE LAMINATE is I think a new wrinkle in protecting our old gals. Have not come across any tests or experiments of water soaked plastic laminate and freezing. Haven't seen this mentioned befor in this way on the internet by anybody.

So here is the rule for when you decommission the boat for the winter;

Remove all sweet water from the bilge.
Make sure the boat stays bone dry in the bilge through the freezing cycles.


This means the owner must remove all foam in place constructions in the bilge even if they were factory installed. And do not put it back.


I've never liked the idea of water being present in the laminate. Water soaked laminate

Under the gelcoat freezing may be a culprit in the breakdown and weakening of the laminate throughout the hull!
In some way we don't know yet, just the presence of water inside the plastic could be bad for a boats health. It is certain that moisture can wick along glass fibers. The glass is merely encapsulated by the plastic. So "FREEZE CRAZING" need not be localized in the bilges only but anywhere in the hull!!!
It is easy to see now that when this water in the fabric is expanded by freezing that laminate can be mechanically broken down. In this scenario crazing in the gelcoat is evidence of a problem in the fiberglass.

Whether the water gets in the laminate through pinholes and imperfections in manufacturing or some aging phenomenon of the polyester itself would be good to know. Maybe it's a number of things. A number of events.


Never buy a frozen plastic boat.
Make damn sure you look for alligator crazing in the hull gelcoat.

[kendall]

I've replaced a lot of foam in various boats, and in my opinion no foam is truly water proof, they will all absorb water sooner or later. I feel that the best way is to make it last as long as possible, and still be easily replaced is to use regular styrofoam, cut/carved to shape so it's a simple drop in, put several ayers of paint on it then put an easily removed cover over it. That way if anything happens from hull damage to waterlogged foam, all you need to do is remove the cover and pull out the foam to make the repair/replace the foam.
The pourable foam, unless poured into a plastic bag that sometimes inhibits cure, sticks to everything and is extremely hard to remove for a repair, with regular styrofoam (white bead style) you can make it in small easily handled chunks for cleaning or bilge painting.

Ken.