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Thread: RUDDER SHOE DISCUSSIONS

  1. #46
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    rudder shoe - heel fitting

    George,
    See google>
    triton: Message: Re: Rudder Shoe
    *
    If it comes up, there is a post from the guy who made extra castings (I believe) - may answer some of your questions.
    Does mention a measured drawing in the PearsonAireil/Commander Manual that
    states the rudder shoe's multi model use: "Alberg Ariel - Vanguard - Coaster" with Coaster added in a later hand. [Alberg 35 is NOT mentioned on the 'rudder shoe' drawing on page 171 in the Aiel/Commander Manual.]
    Certainly, the bearing flange may have to be milled for a slightly different angle if the 'keel post' is at a different angle than the Ariel/Commander.

    The rudder shoe on A-338 was in sorry shape for various reasons.
    It was removed, sides straighten, and bondo/sculpted into a slightly beefier and symetrical version of the original.
    It was then cast at a Richmond CA foundry in silicon bronze.
    And this beefed up version subsequentlly dapped back onto Ariel's badly molded fiberglass keel heel - that also had to be rebuilt because they didn't get the fiberglass stuffed deep enough into the very end of the keel mold where the rudder shoe is mounted!

    The casting is nothing like the humongous casting shown in the side by side photos above.
    It is slightly larger in overall width, but imco can be easily faired into the hull. As it was on A-338.

    Measuring off the casting mold (which is the slightly modifield heel fitting):
    OA 11 3/8"
    Width at widest point on top 3 1/4"
    Inside width at top 2 3/4"
    Bearing surface of flange the rudder shaft engages is 2 1/8" X 2 1/8"
    This then describes the taper of the fitting on top.
    The hole for the shaft is not drilled into the mold - nor are the side holes for the pins.

    The angle of the flange off the straight tops of the fitting is 144 degrees.
    This angle was not changed in the modification.
    Obviously this flange is at right angle to the keel post when installed correctly.
    This is the flange that may have different apparent angles on different Alberg keels than those mentioned.
    [It would be no problem on a casting mold to add a small angle wedge if needed to correct the flange angle to 90degrees if the keel angle is different than those stated on the drawing for the Ariel/Commander, Vanguard and Coaster.]
    Larger Alberg models, like the Alberg 35, may have proportionately larger rudder shoes.


    GOOD LUCK!
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
    * interesting that the Tritons I've seen do not have a rudder shoe.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
    The oversize cast rudder shoe in the above photos looks rather crude -
    and imco the material looks more like brass than bronze.
    I think it is better to have a new shoe cast in a known material.
    My absolute choice is silicone bronze 655.
    Everdur 655 bronze comes in plate form and can easily be welded.
    It may be possible to have a pretty good rudder shoe fabricated from this bronze in a metal shop.
    Last edited by ebb; 02-26-2014 at 02:03 PM.

  2. #47
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    Although "35" is not noted in the reference to "Alberg" in the drawing, I'm pretty sure that Pearson only produced the 35. I believe the 30 was produced by Whitby Boatworks in Ontario.

    But, more important is the difference in the angle of the machined surface of the shoe into which the rudder shaft is inserted. For the Ariel and Vanguard, it is 40 degrees. For the Alberg, it is 35 degrees. Consequently, a shoe produced for an Ariel would NOT be proper for an Alberg -- of course, one possibly could machine the surface angle to 35 degrees without messing up the shoe fit.

  3. #48
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    photos Alberg 35 rudder shoe

    I punched >aberg 35 rudder shoe< into google.
    Went to 'images' where pearsonariel.org thumbnails from various threads from the discussion pages are evident. Nothing here obviously on the Alberg 35.
    however....
    On this first page of thumbnai are three labeled
    alberg 35 gallery spot (46 240X180 -23K -jpg.
    web site is
    fiveprime.org
    The other two thumbnails are 'Cockpit hole' and 'primed cockpit'

    When you cursor the pic you get three disorganized pages of Flickr photos.
    No text of any sort I can find.
    But you can locate 5 or six RUDDER SHOE photos
    and a rebuild of the keel heel.
    Looks like it could be one of our boats, same shoe, same problem. But same size"? That is not known.
    another way in to the same photos: google> My Sailboat Project - a set on flickr

    To my knowledge this is the only online photo collection of an Alberg 35 restoration.
    And the only photos of the rudder shoe/keel restoration.
    There is a rudimentary A35.org site.
    There may be plans available (with measured drawings?) at the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, MA.
    Last edited by ebb; 12-27-2010 at 03:11 PM.

  4. #49
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    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
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    Wanting to purchase new rudder shoe for ceili

    Bill,
    Can you provide me Fred's updated contact info, including phone and email? I'm referring to post #31 and of the nicely finished (machined) shoe he has created.
    Looking to purchase one for Ceili.

    Thank you,
    Chance
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  5. #50
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    Chance:

    Here is the last contact we had for Fred. Unfortunately, he has not responded in several years. It could be that he's moved, or something worse.

    frecarzoee@harbornet.com

    FRED POMERANZ
    1168 QUEETS DR.
    FOX ISLAND, WA 98333

    BTW - The drawing of the shoe in the manual can be used to cast a shoe. That's how Fred did it.

    As noted elsewhere, this shoe fits Commanders, Ariels, Vanguards, Coasters (which all use 35 deg pitch where the shaft sits) and Albergs (which uses a 40 deg pitch where the shaft sits) [see drawing]

  6. #51
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    Chance Happy New Year! The kind of work you do you should think about making a plug to make one out of Kelvar and Epoxy with a bronze bushing inserted. Carl

  7. #52
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    Sep 2001
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    Northern MN
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    I would like to see some design ideas for a composite shoe/shaft option for our boats. I know there is a great deal of strength in resin and fabric but how well do you think it would hold up to occational grounding even if only on sand and mud? Maybe if the shoe was beefed up by increasing the height thickness such that the point where the shaft inserts into the shoe is 5-6 inches above the 'heel' of the keel for lack of the proper term. Would all of this lead to a reshaped rudder? Maybe bring back the constellation rudder Ebb was working on circa 2003?
    My home has a keel.

  8. #53
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    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
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    Carl,
    Thank you, but...I'll stick with a bronze alloy. Actually I have an update for all:

    I just got off the phone this evening with Mr. Fred Pomeranz and we had a very nice conversation. In short, he knows I'm interested in replacing the shoe on "Ceili" and is checking on alloy availability and an updated cost total (to reflect the casting and machine work).

    My alloy of choice is Silicone Bronze 655 (Copper Alloy Number 655 - Wrought High Silicon Bronze A Everdur).

    The new rudder shaft is of the same alloy listed above and I have obtained that through the company Atlas Bronze in NJ.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  9. #54
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    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
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    Bill,
    Mr. Fred Pomeranz's new email address is: frecarzoee@comcast.net. His mailing address is still the same as above. It was a pleasure meeting him over the phone and we had a great conversation. Looks like "Ceili" (Commander #256) will get a new shoe to match her new rudder that I am building.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  10. #55
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    Location
    Camden, NC
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    Silicon bronze rudder shoe

    Just want to let those who may be interested:

    New silicon bronze (Herculoy) rudder shoe

    Cost: $325.00 (includes machine work)

    This is fast moving. Foundry will have the pattern first part of this coming week, and is scheduled for casting.

    If you desire to purchase one, your intentions and commitment to purchase is needed this weekend.

    Thanks
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  11. #56
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    Camden, NC
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    283

    Rudder parts

    Here's Ceili's new rudder shoe, tiller head strap / cap assembly and associated 655 silicon bronze shaft and other items waiting in my garage for the next phase.
    Attached Images      
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  12. #57
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz
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    I think we will be adding a new rudder shoe to our Ariel on our next haul out (soon). Looking for any leads on who might still be available to make one. Better yet would someone might have an extra just lying around. Whatever info you can share I would appreciate…..thanks…….ed (Pathfinder #77)

  13. #58
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    Ed, Fred (as noted above) is the best source, if he's still around. Bristol Bronze, as I recall, may have also produced a rudder shoe, but it did not appear to be as well machined. At the present cost of metals, whomever you find is likely to be more inexpensive than the $325 Chance Smith paid.

    You might want to check with "kendall" in the off topic forum. He recently scrapped an Ariel and may still have the shoe:

    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...m-and-sails-FS.

    FRED POMERANZ
    1168 QUEETS DR.
    FOX ISLAND, WA 98333
    frecarzoee@comcast.net

  14. #59
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    Rudder shoe mold

    Howsitgoin Ed,
    When mine came off it was because it was pretty eaten up
    - somehow - by reacting with the stainless or monel alloy shaft that was used for the fiberglass DFO rudder on A338.
    Or maybe because it wasn't silicon bronze.
    The fitting had extra bolts drilled thru the sides and the remains of zinc wires under the nuts.
    The fiberglass heel inside was a crumbly mess, requiring a serious rebuild.

    One of the thinner sides of the shoe was bent from being bolted rather than pinned to the boat, and if I remember the heel of the shoe was pitted & corroded.

    Used Bondo to build up the sides. Sides are spec 5/16" along the top. But the body is more rounded fair, I guess, since my original was in bad shape.
    Then I took it to Richmond and had California Casting make one in S.B. using it as the mold.


    Just found & took a look at it. Still has silvery mold release on it from the time it was used to make the sand mold.
    Looks smooth, edges sharp.. Did not change the interior shape or dimension. Inside looks original.

    The 3/4" hole for the rudder shaft has to be drilled in the flat at a precise center.
    Manual pg 171 has a drawing of an "Alberg-Ariel-Vanguard-Coaster Rudder Shoe." Mold is very close to those lines.
    Flat in drawing is stated to be 35degrees from the line of the top of the shoe - for the Ariel.
    Drawing measure across the widest part of angled flat that ithe hole for the rudder shaft is drilled in ....sez 2 1//6".
    My mold with unaltered sides (except for fattening lower sides and 'sole' of the Shoe, measures 2 3/16" across the "machined flat".
    Don't believe machining is necessary to get the angle correct, a file can get the flat shiney.
    Mold is slightly longer than Manual at 11.5" and slightly wider at 3.25". Allowing for shrinkage, should cast pretty much like original.
    Sides have to be drilled for copper pins as well, but that is a good thing because you can put them where you want 'em.

    Think I had the piece cleaned up at the shop after casting but not buffed, which made it less expensive.
    Remember thinking it was very reasonable, and cleanly cast.

    The "mold" is as heavy as the real thing, 6lbs, since the real thing is inside.

    Use it of course.
    You might want to see it first.
    I'm in SantaCruz usually around some holiday, can bring it down.
    UPS?
    Last edited by ebb; 04-05-2013 at 01:05 PM.

  15. #60
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    Ed, I have one for sale that needs all machine work done, I'll let it go for $100.00 plus shipping, I thought I would keep it for a spare. but I won't be needing it. Carl
    Attached Images      

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