RUDDER SHOE DISCUSSIONS

[tcoolidge]

I told the artisan that I would put a post here and see what kind of real interest there was and get back to him in a few days to let him know if I can find enough takers to make it worth his while. If I only get one or two I'm seriously thinking about making up the difference myself and holding on to the extras until someone wants them. Be nice if there was one available when needed instead of having to go through all this again. This guy does remarkable work and I'd kind of like for him to do the finish machining. He has a huge shop he putters in with several projects, both wood and metal, going and every one of them is a thing of beauty. I also don't want to find out what a machine shop is going to charge to do the setup and drilling for just one shoe.
Will post an update next week.

[tcoolidge]

The shoe maker is going to be doing more castings, this time in naval silicone bronze. He is also going to do the finish machining. If anyone is interested in acquiring a rudder shoe let me know.

Tom

[Hull376]

Tom,

I'm interested for sure at the price you're estimating. Will need one sooner or later, and it makes sense to take a bird in the hand! After you get the final tally of interested skippers, let us know the cost and if its a go or not.

[Bart]

I know this is an old post but if they're still available I'd love to buy one that is hardened on the bearing surface. Thanks. bartblank@yahoo.com

[Jim Rester]

What's happened since July on Rudder Shoes?

Just hauled the boat and mine is gone.

Any help appreciated

Jim

[Bill]

Fred Pomeranz is the source I used for a replacement shoe. His mailing address is:

FRED POMERANZ
1168 QUEETS DR.
FOX ISLAND, WA 98333

I will E-mail you his E-mail address . . .

[tcoolidge]

He's a good guy and makes a great rudder shoe.
Tom

[Bill]

Contacted Fred for an update. He has one shoe machined and ready for shipping. Price is $300 including S&H. This price is higher than the earlier shoes due to increasing copper prices. The cost of the next shoe is likely to be higher still as the materials for this one were purchased over a year ago.

With commidity prices still on the rise, waiting is probably not a good plan.

[Hull376]

I just had the bottom done on 376, and what do you know? The Zinc I put on the rudder shoe two years ago was gone. I also had a zinc attached by wire to the tiller head fitting when at the dock, but not much gone from it. I have one of Frank's beautiful new rudder shoes in inventory ready to be installed when needed.

[Jim Rester]

The pic is of a rudder shoe from another Pearson. I never saw the boat so I don't know if the rudder post was stainless or not. Obviously this could be made to work but is it a good idea?

If the stainless was more noble than the rudder post and caused the post to disappear my "free" shoe would be the worst bargain I've ever made. And there is some stiff competition for that title.

Another option would be an insert of some material like teflon that would separate the two metals. If I tied the tiller so the rudder did not swing with every wave it might last awhile but how long?

Any ideas?

Jim

[Bill]

IMHO, don't add ss to the mix! Everything else under the boat is bronze.

[donstier]

Good luck with a rudder shoe- I respond here because I don't yet know how to start my own thread... Here's my sitch- I'm buying (probably) A176 out of Orcas Island , and it needs an outboard. I have a GREAT Honda 7.5 LS from the mid-80's. Will it fit in the well? Am I stuck with using some little chainsaw motor? Can the well be modified to fit my Honda? Thanks in advance, fellas- I'm excited to get this little Alberg going and show her transom to my local Port Townsend buddies with their classic (and very cool) woodies. Don Stier ph.360 301-2924

[Bill]

Don, please use the search button at the top of the page and type in "outboard." You will find extensive discussions on the subject. Bottom line, the 4 cycle 8hp Nissan, Yamaha, Mercury, etc (all built by Tohatsu) seems to be the consensus choice.

Any other questions? Please use the search button first!

[ebb]

Hello Jim,
There are some 400 series stainless steels that don't corrode in salt water. The best of the more common 300s is 316. Even that will corrode when oxygen deprived like under washers or where tight against something like under the keel. Sometimes stress corrosion happens when a fastening or plate is under load, screws or bolts crumble or the fitting will develop cracks where corrosion begins. Only low carbon 316 should be welded, normal 316 will rust immediately at the weld.

Is that cup welded on the skeg in your pic? Whether something stainless will corrode is unpredictable, sometimes it won't, even tho it should. Water running by a rudder shoe provides oxygen which may help the fitting survive longer. Out of the water s.s. creates a thin passive protective film in the presense of oxygen.

Stainless has its own problems under water by itself, unless an electrical contact with an annode is constant it will always corrode. In the presense of bronze (copper doesn't like to change its voltage, so when a current happens to it, it is the likely one to corrode or cause the corrosion depending on what it's coupling with) the galvanic corrosion is again unpredictable.

On 338, which had a brass shoe with a s.s. rudder shaft in it, it was the shoe that experienced the worst of the pitting. One would think the copper alloy more noble, except the brasses called bronzes have a load of zinc and lead alloyed in them. If an alloy is a little bit off, and the electric current is just so, I guess the alloy itself can corrode. The s.s rudder shaft in this case showed no obvious deterioration. It was not zinced - the shoe was.

Two very different alloys: s.s and bronze have absolutely no business together under water. That is asking for trouble.

Maybe to say they will create some bad business together. Since you can't isolate rudder shaft and shoe you have to zinc the separate pieces. But either the zincs wouldn't work or they'ld dissolve so fast the shoe or the rudder would quickly become unprotected. Even similar alloys (two bronzes or or two stainless) are different enough to begin exchanging little particles.

[ebb]

George,
See google>
triton: Message: Re: Rudder Shoe
*
If it comes up, there is a post from the guy who made extra castings (I believe) - may answer some of your questions.
Does mention a measured drawing in the PearsonAireil/Commander Manual that
states the rudder shoe's multi model use: "Alberg Ariel - Vanguard - Coaster" with Coaster added in a later hand. [Alberg 35 is NOT mentioned on the 'rudder shoe' drawing on page 171 in the Aiel/Commander Manual.]
Certainly, the bearing flange may have to be milled for a slightly different angle if the 'keel post' is at a different angle than the Ariel/Commander.

The rudder shoe on A-338 was in sorry shape for various reasons.
It was removed, sides straighten, and bondo/sculpted into a slightly beefier and symetrical version of the original.
It was then cast at a Richmond CA foundry in silicon bronze.
And this beefed up version subsequentlly dapped back onto Ariel's badly molded fiberglass keel heel - that also had to be rebuilt because they didn't get the fiberglass stuffed deep enough into the very end of the keel mold where the rudder shoe is mounted!

The casting is nothing like the humongous casting shown in the side by side photos above.
It is slightly larger in overall width, but imco can be easily faired into the hull. As it was on A-338.

Measuring off the casting mold (which is the slightly modifield heel fitting):
OA 11 3/8"
Width at widest point on top 3 1/4"
Inside width at top 2 3/4"
Bearing surface of flange the rudder shaft engages is 2 1/8" X 2 1/8"
This then describes the taper of the fitting on top.
The hole for the shaft is not drilled into the mold - nor are the side holes for the pins.

The angle of the flange off the straight tops of the fitting is 144 degrees.
This angle was not changed in the modification.
Obviously this flange is at right angle to the keel post when installed correctly.
This is the flange that may have different apparent angles on different Alberg keels than those mentioned.
[It would be no problem on a casting mold to add a small angle wedge if needed to correct the flange angle to 90degrees if the keel angle is different than those stated on the drawing for the Ariel/Commander, Vanguard and Coaster.]
Larger Alberg models, like the Alberg 35, may have proportionately larger rudder shoes.


GOOD LUCK!
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* interesting that the Tritons I've seen do not have a rudder shoe.
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The oversize cast rudder shoe in the above photos looks rather crude -
and imco the material looks more like brass than bronze.
I think it is better to have a new shoe cast in a known material.
My absolute choice is silicone bronze 655.
Everdur 655 bronze comes in plate form and can easily be welded.
It may be possible to have a pretty good rudder shoe fabricated from this bronze in a metal shop.