RUDDER SHOE DISCUSSIONS

[CapnK]

Wound up being $172 w/shipping, near enough. Anticipating the worst - I'm not *positive* that I need it, but wanted it on-hand just in case I find 'bad stuff' down there when I pull the boat. Bronze rod can be ordered fairly easily, not so a shoe. And with the price climbing above 3BoatBux over three years ago, figured it was a good deal not to be passed up...

That said - I don't see why a shoe couldn't be made of composites - heck, shoe and rudder combined - no more worry about electrolysis ever. Spent some time looking at McMaster and such for materials. Found that you can fairly easily procure 1" OD solid carbon fiber rod somewhat cheaper than a good bronze alloy, though only in 4' lengths (so far - more searching might find a source for longer rod stock). Hollow tube stock can be found in longer sections, but I don't know how much faith I could put into that, considering stresses and whatnot... I imagine that abrasion could be an issue, would probably be *the* issue. But could also be accounted for in designing and constructing. Some well placed sacrificial Delrin might do the trick. A shoe might be made from sheet material glued up and then milled to a proper rudder-post-base accepting shape that could be attached to the after part of the keel...

Food for thought, anyway.

Thanks for the heads up on that auction, C'Pete! I had good eBay fu yesterday - spent all my birthday money. Also scored a set of 8:1 Harken mainsheet blocks for just over a $100 - retail would be $450+! I got them to use during rigging jobs, should be able to hoist myself aloft easily now, without needing to procure the help of a deckhand winch grinder. And though you don't need that kind of purchase on an Ariel, I could still use them in that way, or as a handy billy.

Hate that the yard did that to your rudder. Did they pick up replacement/repair costs?

[ebb]

Kurt, that's interestin....
All that is really required at the bottom of a rudder shaft is a decent BEARING - and even that could be some spaceage material. Super acetal. And it could be designed to be easily replaceble.
Don't know if the obvious alternate materials, kevlar and carbonfiber plus a twopart plastic are the optimum underwater materials. Not yet, but something will come along.
Our shoe is a nice tidy little bronze burrito that disappears as an appendage. Its plastic/fiber replacement would be noticeable and might just as well be a bit larger and longer and bolt on directly to the bottom of the keel without being dapped in.. Have seen boats that instead of a shoe have a super gudgeon just up from the bottom for the rudder end. That moves the hinge up from the more vulnerable end of the keel position. And a design like that actually might work for the Ariel/Commanders.
Siliconbronze is an ideal material. Don't think that any epoxy composite can equal the stuff.

I agree with your rudder upgrade too. Occured to me once that the rudder doesn't care if it has a single or twopart bronze rod to swing on. Our rudder has a bearing at the very bottom of the shaft and at the top. (And perhaps at the intermediate strap gudgeon.)
The inbetween can be square sectioned, I-beamed, or any shape - OR doesn't even need to be there. That 1" bronze rod is,what, 20#? We only need it's roundness and toughness at the bottom and the top. It can conceivable be any other material inbetween. Or can just be whatever the blade material is.
A composite rudder that didn't depend on a huge 6 foot long, one inch diameter pin would be a great design challenge. As to the rudder having a hollow rod, I noticed in Alberg's original drawings in the Manual a 2" shaft - which ofcourse would be hollow.
Or if on the back end of a wooden boat would be two inches of white oak or teak. And the attachment method gudgeons and pintles. With the blade material inbetween!


Our original rudder and shoe are imco holdovers from pre-fiberglass history, from the wooden boat days.
The bronze shoe especially seems to belong on the end of a keelpost timber, not barely holding on to a plastic boat that really isn't capable, the way it was molded, to really hold the fitting. I mean the shoe is a wood boat fitting on a plastic keel.
I think a modern design upgrade of both is a great idea.

[carl291]

I bought one of the rudders shoes advertised on EBAY, it arrived today. It is certainly a very hefty piece when compared to the original. I'll post some pictures tomorrow of both shoes , new and old, side by side so you can compare.
The seller said his friend had several of these cast several years ago and just recently dug them out to sell. I don't know how many he has, but I mentioned posting here if he had more to sell.
Later

PS I will add I feel like this is nearly twice the weight of the original and will positively need to be milled (ground) down to use, it's just TOO hefty a piece.
I really don't need it as my original is in good shape. If a member does, contact me, The price is cost plus zero.

[George Boggs]

To Carl291 and others: I am new to the thread. I have an Alberg 35 that needs a new rudder shoe after suffering the same fate as commander pete at haul out this fall. Can you all advise me as where I can get one now. Should I contact Fred in Washington who appears to have made some a few years ago, and if so, does anyone have his email address? Does anyone else have a source that I can contact? It is not clear that the shoe described in this thread would fit an Alberg 35, but at least one person thought it would work on several of the Alberg designed models. Thanks in advance for any advice? George

[carl291]

Mr. Boggs, Welcome, If I recall the gentleman who had these cast had an A-35 and had these cast from that original shoe. This wasn't cast as an Ariel direct replacement. Hence the hefty size in the previous photos. This piece is for sale if your interested, I could take some measurements this weekend if I should get home and post here.