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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,543

    shim sham

    I did try fit a piece of true 1"bronze shaft in the old tiller head with the shim and it slips right on. The new head fits more snug (in other words you can't get it on the shaft stock by hand) but it is chromed. Edson's plain bronze copy may slip on perfect.

    338 did have a counterfeit rudder with a stock probably of s.s. propeller shaft as it showed no recognizable galvanic corrosion. It measures about 1/32 LESS that 1". No wonder there was slop! Can we assume that that barely discernable brass liner is ORIGINAL SHIM?

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,241
    Hey, of all the things of which Pearson can be accused, using multiple metals below the water line is not one of them. 338's ss shaft was/is a replacement for the original bronze.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    444
    Very interesting. Augustine is hull #330, and has a shim inside th tiller head fitting, although not original, on a bronze shaft that is probably also not original. Ebb's Hull #338 seems to be in a different though parallel condition.

    I want to replace my Pepsi can shim, and would like to find thin bronze sheet to do the trick, but failing to find such material, I will probably use plastic. Anyone know a source for thin sheets of bronze metal?

    This rudder business will have to wait in any case. The rudder is serviceable at present, and I have to try out my spiffy new mast-base plates, which I had made of 316 stainless to mount a series of Garhauer blocks to run my lines back to the cockpit. I installed them today and they appear to work well to keep the lines clear as they pass over the rise in the deck. I will have to look for bronze shims later, but it is nice to know that there is at least one other boat out there with a shimmed tiller head fitting. Now I have to figure out what exactly I sholdl do about it.
    Scott

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
    Posts
    821
    Places that sell fasteners ( I dont mean HomeDumpo or Lowes ) usually have shim stock of all kinds . Look for an industrial fastener outlet they will either have it or know where to get it .

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    444
    Thanks Mike. It's good to know that they make such stuff. I'll look for some shim stock at an industrial fastener outlet in the Bay Area, as soon as I locate one. In the mean time me and my Pepsi can shim are going sailing. I slathered it up with some corrosion prevention stuff for the time being.
    Scott

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,543
    ok Mike, into the breech. ......let's see, there used to be a had it all fastnerner place on Harrison, I think it was called Harrison and Harrison, in S.F. I'll check with that high end [expensive!] welding shop that's gotten me out of trouble. And there's Randy's [metal] Design - I know he knows. I wonder if one of those VAST catalogs I hear about have shim material. MC Masters??

    Think I'll get me a selection. Be good to have on the boat. Stainless and monel too. Probably have to buy a pound each

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Central NJ, Raritan Bay
    Posts
    114
    Just a few random thoughts on the subject.

    A former owner had sandwiched the original rudder of my #199 Ariel in fibreglass. As it aged, the glass decomposed, admitted and held water, which rotted the wood, etc, etc. During my "seat of the pants" removal and breakdown of the rudder for patterns, I found that the solid looking shaft was indeed the familiar 2 piece Pearson design. Easy to mistake, Scott, esp. for a diver.

    My tiller also was sloppy, and excess wear was found along the sides of the block, where the tiller arms lay, forward of the pivot bolt. The previous owner raced a lot, and just wore it out. A little brazing and Bridgeport work brought it back to dimension.

    When you haul your boat, if it doesn't have one, be sure to replace that copper strap to the keel about mid-shaft. It steadies the shaft against flexing, esp. when hard down and reversing, as well as holding it in the shoe.

    When you reattach the tiller block to the shaft, be sure to apply a good quality Nevr Sieze to the mating surfaces. I use the copper based variety. For shimming I suggest brass shim stock, but sleeving and reboring to the actual shaft size is the best fix, if you have the time.

    Talk with the Forum sailors, they are a great help. Murphy's law ordered me to do most of my repairs/rebuilding before I knew of the Forum. Now I sit here and moan "now they tell me".

    When you splash it back in, SAIL THE DAMN THING. Pearsons are not show dogs. They like to hunt and are only happy beating to windward at about 22 degrees. Like C'pete says, if it ain't fun, why do it?

    Cheers.
    ()-9

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Alexandria, VA, boat in Deale, MD
    Posts
    255

    rudder replacement

    since Izzy left me with a broken rudder (see the thread about Izzy for a pic) i am mulling over various methods to replace it.

    1. just epoxy the two halves back together, and put a few bronze straps (~12" long) across the repair on both sides of the rudder, bolted to each other.

    2. make a new mahogany rudder. using the same manufacturing and attachment methods. nut pockets in the rudder and all. i can use all but one of the old bolts (one broke)

    3. make a new rudder out of fiberglass. this method would leave me with the finished rudder having all the bronze rudder stock encased in fiberglass too. this might be difficult to install once finished. i would have to take off the shoe at the bottom, raise the whole boat up high enough to slide the rudder stock up into the boat and in the cockpit. and then replace the shoe again.

    4. buy the beat up ariel that is in my yacht yard and currently for sale on Ebay, and strip it of all kinds of parts: rudder, spreader sockets, cleats, etc. and then sell the remaining parts to everybody in the association. wasn't someone previously looking for a rudder shoe, an icebox hatch/cover and some cleats?
    when i was done raping and pilaging this boat, i would cut the lead out, sell it to a recycler, and throw the hull away. and Ariel #370 would die, but #3 would live on.....
    It sounds like a joke, but really, i am seriously considering it.

    any thoughts on the above?
    -km
    aka, "sell out"
    S/V Beyond the Sea
    C&C 35 mkIII

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
    Posts
    1,099
    I haven't been watching the auction but if C Pete doesn't mind buy the boat. It's in your yard, it's cheap, you'll get all of the pieces you'll need/want, you'll get your money back for salvage value. I hate the thought of destroying her but unless somebody really wants a project boat that's probably where she's headed. Why not get the most good out of her. Then use her rudderstock for a pattern to make a new solid rudder out of fiberglass or some other material. Then reproduce it and sell 'em to all of us for little or no profit!
    For the time being I think option number one is your best bet. For what it's worth, Tony G

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Bellingham, Wa.
    Posts
    173
    If you DO chop the boat, I'd really like the rudder shoe from the keel.

    Best,
    Dave

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Olalla, WA
    Posts
    71
    Option 1 seems simplest, probably cheapest and would probably work but is something of a stopgap measure. These boats, wonderful as they are, are getting along in years and eventually things need to be replaced if they are going to survive. I've generally found that when you have to start holding things together with straps and screws it's time to replace them.
    Option 2 would be good if you can find the mahogany. The rudder that came on the boat lasted quite a while so there is no reason for a new one not to do the same. My reservations on this route are finding a decent piece of wood to build the new one out of and the possibility of corrosion or fatigue in the shaft or attachment points.
    Option 3 would be great, especially if you follow Tony G's suggestion and produce a few. Since you're going to take it apart anyhow, ending up with a new rudder and not having to worry about it seems like the best possible outcome.
    Option 4 would be worth considering just for the spare parts. Having a parts boat would be kind of handy. Before buying it just for the rudder, make sure that you are getting something worth the effort. The rudder and shaft are probably just as old as the one you have now.
    If you do buy the ailing boat and want to part it out, let me know.
    Tom
    Furthur #332

  12. #57
    Chris Warfel Guest

    Rudder replacement

    I did option two, with two pieces of mahogney. It was tricky getting the bolts reset, but it was really interesting seeing how the rudder was origionally built.

    Chris

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,543
    My thought on canabalizing #370 is that it is a TERRIBLE waste.
    The rudder is replaceable - but the Ariel isn't.
    There just are not enough of these boats around.

    Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a competant and efficient yard that bought them and did a basic reconditioning to get them into the marketplaece again. Somebody will always want an Ariel or Commander!

    Awhile ago an Ensign came into the yard that was lien saled. Nobody wanted her. It was stripped, chainsawed and crushed. Whenever these unfortunated boats are brought to the yard to be murdered, I make sure I have something else to do elsewhere.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Alexandria, VA, boat in Deale, MD
    Posts
    255

    option #4 probably gone

    someone else ended up buying the boat. and has not responded about his/her intentions (refurb or parting out).

    i am leaning toward #1 for the next season, and using this next winter and summer to make a new one.

    but whether to make a new mahogany, or a fiberglass one is up in the air. i am having trouble thinking throught the install of a fiberglass one.

    if i make a fiberglass one that is complete, rudder with bronze pieces all molded into a solid, single unit, how on earth do i install it? i would have to have the aft end of the boat lifted like 3 feet into the air, just to have clearance to fit the rudder stock up into the boat ( the tiller/cockpit end).
    my other thought is to replicate the shape the old rudder, and attach it to the rudder stock after the rudder stock is in the boat. but this introduces other problems: like how to do the fasteners, how to deal with the damn aperature, etc etc..
    I don't like the idea of edge bolting a fiberglass rudder like the mahogany one is.
    one idea is to leave really large holes in the rudder where the bolts/screws go in, push some screws into place, and fill the cavity with epoxy.

    but whatever, that is a thought exercise for later.
    -km
    aka, "sell out"
    S/V Beyond the Sea
    C&C 35 mkIII

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Olalla, WA
    Posts
    71
    I am looking at the same project. Since it appears I have to replace the rudder shoe I figure I might as well do the whole rudder system while I'm at it so it will be done and I don't have to worry about it any more. My current thought is to have a new ruddershaft fabricated with the attachment bolts replaced by bronze straps ( flat stock) welded (or bolted) to the shaft then laying up a cold molded strip planked rudder to fit precisely around the straps. The straps would be predrilled to allow placement of attachment screws (bolts?) to reinforce the bond. Strip planking would probably be epoxy saturated cedar, which would minimize water entry and result in an incredibly strong final product. It might be a little heavy, but since I'm not a racer, that doesn't bother me and I would end up with a sealed, easily paintable rudder. Any thoughts?

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