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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #406
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Oklahoma City, OK
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    101

    Reinstalling the Shoe

    Does anyone have advice to offer when reinstalling the shoe? I would like to use the same peen type pins if they can still be purchased. Also considered 5200 or 4200 for a watertite seal to the heel. Your feedback would be great.

  2. #407
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
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    2,252
    Quote Originally Posted by captcraig View Post
    Attachment 9197 .. Can anyone explain or show pics of how this original rudder is assembled?
    There is a tech drawing in the appendix to the owner's manual that illustrates the rudder construction.

  3. #408
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    Jan 2004
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    Scarborough, Maine
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    1,435
    Quote Originally Posted by captcraig View Post
    Does anyone have advice to offer when reinstalling the shoe? I would like to use the same peen type pins if they can still be purchased. Also considered 5200 or 4200 for a watertite seal to the heel. Your feedback would be great.
    Here's a good thread by the PO of Ariel 24. Tim did some really great work. (starts on post #52)
    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...Ariel-24/page2

    More rudder discussions here:
    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...4545#post24545
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  4. #409
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,549

    Manual tech drawing pg170

    really good for locating the 3/8" FLATHEAD MACHINE SCREWS.

    You can get FULL BODY slotted SBFHMS 3/8-16 from TopNotchFasteners in sizes from 2 1/12" to 16". At very reasonable prices for exactly what you'd need for a rebuild.

    Full body means you are not using allthead which for its size is weaker than FB unthreaded.
    Look on the trailing end for plugs.
    Also I think I recall a small third 'plank' was (sometimes?) added to make the profile curve. That was screwed on with wood screws from the trailing edge.


    Assume the 'bronze' of the old sweet water rudder will probably run into problems sooner or later in salt.

    C46400 NAVAL BRONZE is a tricky alloy. It's an alloy of 60% copper 39.2% zinc and 0.8% tin. It is traditionally used for shafting.
    It's other name is Naval Brass. But the addition of tin allows it to be called a bronze. And it is pretty strong stuff. But not galvanically.
    0.8% tin is added for an equal quantity of zinc. It makes the 'brass' more resistant to dezincification. But not entirely, high zinc alloys (including 30% zn manganese bronze) always end up porous...... under salt water.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................

    Captcraig, What would you have done if someone had 5200ed your ruddershoe onto the keel?

    PEENING COPPER ROD....SparTalk Brion Toss - Peening copper rod 6.29.07
    Last edited by ebb; 03-09-2014 at 12:16 AM.

  5. #410
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    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
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    101
    Name:  DSC05618.jpg
Views: 212
Size:  43.9 KB Thank you Bill, Mike, Ebb, When I took the boat off the trailer it was just high enough to place 3 concrete blocks underneath in series which by dumb luck was just high enough to slide the rudder out, whew. Ok Bill you talked me into buying a manual and yes Ebb I'm glad someone didn't have the bright idea to 5200 the shoe on to the heel. The third plank appears to be put together with drift pins and maybe the second as well. I'll know more once its clean. It does look exactly like the rudder in post 100, of this thread. I have been scouring the forum and searching. I'll check out all those post you pointed out soon. Thanks again
    Last edited by captcraig; 03-08-2014 at 07:48 PM.

  6. #411
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
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    467
    You can buy copper rod at McMaster-Carr. It's easy and fun to hammer and peen rivets.

    http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-rods/=r0en3w

  7. #412
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,549

    drift pins

    Drift pins are usually metal.
    If metal (bronze or copper) hopefully the planks will separate as they loose moisture
    and you can use an ocillating blade like a Fein Tool (buy a cheaper one with a Bosch
    dog leg metal cutting blade) to separate the planks.
    Before you start cutting see if you can DISASSEMBLE the fastenings.

    On the edge of the plank if they are wood - look closely for end grain if a dowel. If flat grain it's a plug and there is
    a slothead just inside.

    If you are seeing a fat shadow in the crack, that's a 3/8" machine screw (flathead bolt) or screw. Not likely wood.
    Remove the little 3rd 'plank' first (if there is one), see what's inside. Might find some nuts and washers. Or just screws.
    Bolts you can get out of there - but probably not drift pins. I'd be surprised if drift pins were used.

    IN THE 1"D SHAFT (stock)
    You really need the drawing to locate the fastenings. BUT, of course you can 'see' the heads in the metal shaft.
    There are three screws or bolt heads in each section of the shaft.
    "Upper rudder stock and lower rudder stock" on the drawing.

    Top of the rudder at the beginning of the blade:
    First fastener is a bolt - just before the bend - which presumably goes thru the first board (it is listed as 6" long.)
    Next fastening is a 5" #18 screw - goes thru the bent part of the shaft.
    The lag screw might be difficult to get out. Use a driver that fits tight and to the bottom of the slot of the head.
    [Ancient tip: See if it'll tighten first, a tiny bit - that might help start it, then back it out.]
    Third at the end of the bent shaft is said to be another 6" bolt.

    Lower straight shaft has a 6" bolt near the cut out - at the top of the lower stock.
    Assume that goes thru the first board also.
    Next two fastenings are shown to be 5" screws.
    6 fastenings total. 3 screws, 3 bolts.

    You will note these boards are not glued together. They were bedded with a non-adhesive compound.
    This allows the rudder to breathe when it is in and out of the water.
    It will tend to keep the rudder from cupping and bowing.
    It's natural for the cracks to appear. The rudder will swell closed again in the water.
    Talked with one rudder rebuilder here who glued his together - and reported his blade had not bowed.


    Toast that "solid" Honduras M.
    50 years, hard working, drowned, drillrd, neglected, poisoned, and still a champ. That's amazing !
    Last edited by ebb; 03-09-2014 at 11:53 PM.

  8. #413
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Posts
    101

    Screws in the Rudder

    Hey Ebb, yer right once again. Screws in the rudder. Was walking by the rudder and took a look in bright sunlight this morn and there was a mahog plug and another, one fell off in my hand. Slotted screws ahoy. I read most of Tims Rudder/Keel project and that is an excellent article to understand the complex keel setup. Not as simple as I had imagined. The mould idea using the old shoe appeals to me. Thank you guys for pointing out those post. Haven't read the other project yet but will.

  9. #414
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    Feb 2013
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    Oklahoma City, OK
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    Name:  DSC05633.jpg
Views: 205
Size:  35.9 KBName:  DSC05634.jpg
Views: 206
Size:  37.5 KB The mahogony plug that came off when I brushed it with my hand. The more I look at the rudder the better it looks, the wood is still very dense.

  10. #415
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
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    101

    Good Wood

    Name:  DSC05647.jpg
Views: 200
Size:  41.8 KBName:  DSC05637.jpg
Views: 196
Size:  20.4 KB Good wood cleaned up, now for the rest of it. Sharpest edge on trailing edge at left and wood plug to right

  11. #416
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
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    101
    Name:  DSC05642.jpg
Views: 204
Size:  22.5 KBName:  DSC05616.jpg
Views: 205
Size:  28.1 KB The plastic bushing was at the base of the fiberglass tube, it polished the brass. Original hardware, plastic bushing top left, new bushing in center from the Association.

  12. #417
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    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Posts
    101
    All the rest of my progress will be posted on my thread "Ariel 157" in the Gallery.

  13. #418
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,549

    rudderhead fitting with the fat cheek

    (left side of photo - bottom 416)
    On that head fitting.... that sits on the "stock".... looks like
    it's missing a CAP SCREW. Did you remiove it?


    A few observations:
    That screw is meant to squeeze one of the cheeks it goes thru
    around the shaft....so the tillerhead won't pull off too easy.
    And also help keep the square key from moving around.

    It's not a bolt that goes there! The fat cheek is threaded to receive the screw.
    The thinner cheek has no threads - it's meant to slip the cap screw
    Looks like it's supposed to tighten the thinner cheek a skoch.....
    BUT it's impossible to move it by screwing in the ittybitty cap screw.
    You may break the SB hexhead- fullthreasd 1"-5/16-18
    capscrew if you want to close the gap with it.

    After cleaning crud out of the 'crack', when reassembling, before you
    screw in the bolt, bend the cheek closed (1/32" - 1/16") around the shaft
    with a 'C' clamp,
    (To make it easier, try to 'pre-bend' it before slipping it on the shafthead. Careful....)
    THEN turn the cap screw in with LANOCOTE or Tefgel.... just barely tight.
    Lanocote the key too. I'd smear it on everything - keeps the salt crystals out.


    50 years ago, when it was new, it probably fit pretty good. Now the rudder head
    sits loose on the shaft. Somebody here SHIMMED his with a piece of pepsicola can.
    (onlinemetals has pure soft copper shim sheets. Like a footsquare for $8)

    At least one other owner has drilled and tapped his rudder head for one or two
    316 SET SCREWS (10-24 - McMCarr) that penetrate into the rudderhead KEYWAY
    - to press the key against the shaft.
    The problem with that is remembering them when it comes time to take it apart.

    A great idea is also to countersink the KEY to receive CONEPOINT set screws
    to keep the key from slipping out of the head keyway. Imagine the strain on
    the top of the shaft there .....as you push & pull the tiller a million times.
    One more thing that removes slop from the steering system.
    .................................................. .........................................
    Photo at 415... Oddest looking plug I evah did see!
    Whuts in there?
    Last edited by ebb; 03-15-2014 at 01:05 PM.

  14. #419
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
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    101
    I've decided to make a template using the existing rudder, so that I can duplicate the size and shape of the original. After that, dismantling of the existing rudder will begin. Hey Ebb, slotted screws behind those plugs just like you said.

  15. #420
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,549

    Lightbulb scale the drawing in Manual for rudder

    While not absolute, because of the number of times a drawing has been copied,
    this may get you closer to Alberg's lines (rather than Pearson's).
    That is an assumption. There is no way of being sure that copies in the Manual are correct,
    (or that the Pearson rudder on the boat is Alberg accurate) but imco this is what we have to work with.

    Take the rudder lines drawing (pg 170) from the Manual to a copy shop.
    Have them zoom the picture to a 12 Scale Rule (1"= 1')

    [Available 6" and 12" rulers - with inch separations in 12 parts - rather than standard 8-16 parts.
    Got mine off the internet. But an art supply shop might have the rulers.]

    Zoom the drawing to a known measure of the rudder.
    For instance, the lower stock on the drawing is 24" - plus the 3/4" that goes into the shoe.
    So, at the copyshop, you might scale the lower rudder stock drawing to an actual 12" or 6" or 3" using this one known measure.
    With a very thin point pen, draw a 12 Scale grid on the quarter or half sized scaled up copyshop rendition of the whole rudder blade.
    Then lay out a full sized grid on your shop table, and translate the rudder lines to it.....almost directly from the master's hand.

    Wood battens may help lay out the curves.
    I have an Acu-Arc 1033-48 48" Adjustable Curve (a bit pricey)
    It is composed of a number of sliding interlocking plastic strips that easily bend and sortof
    hold the shape while you carefully trace the template you have layed out.
    Hope this helps.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................
    Took all Manual Ariel drawings to the copyshop and had them zoom and print the A/C to an exact 9 1/8" inch waterline (18' 6")
    - thereby creating 'to scale' drawings which produce pretty much accurate measures - using the 1" = 1' doll-house ruler.
    Another quick measure to check zoom accuracy at the copyshop is the length of the mast*: 15"......every 1/2" = 1'.
    * exactly 15", deck to the mast head, but not including the masthead fitting or crane.
    [The only Alberg heliga graal signed lines drawings are on pgs 144 & 145 in the Manual.]

    Don't know that Pearson delivered Ariel's with an 18' 6" waterline. Has anybody ever actually measured??
    Last edited by ebb; 03-18-2014 at 01:30 AM.

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