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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #391
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    Oklahoma City, OK
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    Thank you Ed for the compliments. The offwind advantage had not occured to me. Check out my vintage stuff photos under the thread A157 in the Gallery. The boat I bought was in remarkable condition with all the old stuff in remarkable condition as well. Thanks again.
    Last edited by captcraig; 03-02-2014 at 08:37 PM.

  2. #392
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    Attachment 9187Attachment 9186Attachment 9185 I'll post some better photos
    Last edited by captcraig; 03-02-2014 at 07:54 PM. Reason: poor photo quality

  3. #393
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    rudder current condition?

    REALLY SCAREY !

  4. #394
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    rudder forensics: The Case of the Crystalline Heel from Hell

    Captcraig,
    Look at Miro's post on this thread #341'
    Your rudder photo SEEMS to show that same original Pearson rudder.
    Imco you might do as Miro and take the bloody paint off.
    You want to see what's going on !

    When A338's rudder and everything else (except the rudder tube) was taken apart,
    Discovered that the heel fitting (rudder shoe) was barely held on by its fastenings.
    When I took it off I found that half of the bottom of the keel there was broken pieces of crystalline plastic.

    The hull when it was made at the factory was layed up in a single mold.
    That meant that the narrow hollow of the mold at the stern had to be perfectly done.
    On A338 it wasn't. The workers had not punched the fiberglass reinforcement all the way into the farthest corner where the rather short
    heel fitting is mechanically connected. Even after 337 Ariels, before A338, they broke for lunch too early.
    That meant when the fitting was attached with its original four pins, some went through unreinforced polyester....maybe one or two pins were doing all the work.

    I see in your photo at the very bottom that part of the boat is missing.

    It does look like your heel fitting is tight. BUT........
    There is tremendous weight on that part of your rudder system. Guess 30 to 40 pounds deadweight.
    THE WHOLE NON-BOUYANT RUDDER SYSTEM, INCLUDING THE TILLER HEAD, IS BEARING ON THE END OF THE RUDDER SHOE
    There must be tremendous forces on that fitting when the rudder is really working. Assume that offshore forces will be multiplied.

    I would get that rudder off and take a good look at the end of your keel by removing the heel fitting and suss if Pearson got glass down in the end there. Amount of fiberglass tenon inside the fitting is 2 to 2 1/2" wide and not much deeper. A bit crazy... whole steering system...???

    Basically the rudder shoe needs to be connected with the remainder of the vessel.*
    Pearson getting it perfect by hiring Azorian farmers to jam glass and smoking polyester down into the mold with broom sticks (may actually be true) was a matter of luck. Don't know about skill. After 338 Ariels, breathing all that polyester, you got skill. Ayedunknoe?

    Take a good look at what you got there, before you go briney.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .
    Also scanned the long c'amos quote post #355. "Sintered Bronze" is not a description of bronze rod. Sintered bronze is a high pressure powdered bronze reconstituted usually into SAE or silicone oil infused sleeve bearings.
    Plain 655 cold rolled silicon bronze is the most reliable material on the planet for A/C rudder assemblies.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................


    *A KEEL/HEEL EXCAVATION
    Of course there is no perfect. And there are 100 ways to fix anything. This is what we did, doesn't make it gospel.
    When cleaned up, the heel the tenon, that the rudder shoe was supposed to be mortised on A338, was almost non-existant!
    Drilled two deep holes, six inches straight up from the bottom, into the keel. Didn't go through to the inside.
    Can't recall exactly what size lag bolt, 3/8" or 1/2", step-drilled the holes so that the bronze lagbolts had to be turned really tight into position. Glued them in with epoxy. Had hex heads, washers and a bit of the shank sticking out enough so that they could be wrapped in saturated biaxial mat...

    While the guys who molded the hull didn't get the bitter end of the keel done correctly, they did stuff in a bunch of cuttings and matt
    against the keel-post to created a back flow ramp so that bilge water would collect more forward in the sump. This made for a very solid block to drive the bronze implants into.

    Used California Casting's freshly minted rudder shoe lined it with seran wrap as the mold, filled it with saturated X-matt and jacked the fitting into place. There was still enough keel tenon & shoulder left to get it to seat exactly. Had to plan for the shoe pins so we didn't run into anchor bolts when drilling thru the rudder shoe.
    We, Littlegull and I, think we have solved our Case of the Crystalline Heel from Hell. Hopeso

    Hope this helps some.
    Last edited by ebb; 03-05-2017 at 03:39 PM.

  5. #395
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    Name:  DSC05557.jpg
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    Thanks Ebb, I agree the heel needs to come off when I take the rudder off as well. The fiberglass does appear to be somewhat weak above the heel. The photos look more like abstact art with some paint on and some off, the wood doesn't appear to be in bad shape but it looks rough for sure in its current state. The keel has dripped some water out this winter so the heel may be one of the places it entered. The bilge looks great so I don't think its worked its way down from there. I ordered a rudder bushing from Bill and hope to start the dismantle soon. I made a lifting frame to make working on the bottom a little easier. I need some better straps and better post but its working pretty good for now. I lifted it off the trailer and hurridly blocked the keel and put some stands under it.

  6. #396
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    Orinda, California
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    Search first

    Searching will turn up answers to your questions. For example, water in the keel:

    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...604-keel-voids

    Also, check this thread for links to more rudder repair discussions:

    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...t&daysprune=-1

    Just scrolling through the technical threads can be helpful. Using the Google search system described in the "Posting Guide" thread in the Off Topic forum is a big help in finding answers.

  7. #397
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    O Sage !

    google> Building Peterson's "Susan" #9

    Osage Orange everywhere!
    Plus, it is one amazing photographic adventure of a wooden schooner being built. Glorious!

    How abour an osage rudder, oh Sage?
    Last edited by ebb; 03-05-2017 at 03:44 PM.

  8. #398
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    Osage Orange, Bois d Arc for a rudder

    Farmers here in these parts planted Osage Orange in large numbers as hedges along the fields after the dust bowl to slow down the high winds we have. They realized that the branches made good fence post. Of course the indians made bows out of the hard stuff for centuries. Fence posts out of OO have been documented to last 80+ years. Would be fun to experiment with it for a rudder. Its not easy to work with though, hard as nails and the older it is the harder, so best to work with it green. Off topic but my great great grandfather was a landrunner in the Cherokee Strip Land Run and kept a day book (diary)

  9. #399
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    Pearson Ariel Rudder

    Just typed a series of 'rudder' combinations into google
    and didn't come up with what foggy pictures I have of rudders I've seen here.

    google is inconsistant when it comes to how far it ventures into threads.
    IT's not good at all if visuals are not matched exactly with words.

    Have picctures in my head of rudders that guys have made.....but I don't recall where they are.......some were great, some not so great......but all should be studied. You may have to scan major contrubutors in the Gallery to locate any photos of rebuilt rudders.

    There is one Ariel site on google (Archimedes?) where a guy has videoed himself cutting his rudder in half to get it out of the boat.....because he is on the hard.
    Looks like you are in a similar quandary, unable to drop the rudder......
    Unable to make the decision to trash your rudder. Really hard decision.

    But if you are almost certain that you will be having a new rudder,
    you might study what others have done and come up with a couple of options.

    TWO PIECE SHAFT
    A decent machine shop can bend 1" rod using their brake. It's really a mild easy bend.
    When you have the bend you can locate and cut the keyway for the tillerhead. Have them do it.
    Excavate the keyway on a lathe - before bending. The trick is to get it exactly lined up with tiller and blade.
    Mill an extra keyway on the opposite side:
    Ria a quadrant? wind vane connect? emergency tiller? other design (Edson) tillerhead? shaft mounted rudder stop?
    The bottom straight piece can easily be milled on a lathe for the 3/4" bearing.
    The Ariel rudder has to be made with 1" rod because the heel fitting limits the diameter of the shaft.
    And so does the tube that guides the shaft into the cockpit. We're stuck with what we got.
    Can see the original two piece shaft rudder recreated with meranti ply, epoxy and kevlar.

    Imco it is possible to create a strong modern cruising rudder using modern methods and materials....as already said.
    Came up with some utterly rediculous ideas of how to design a rudder that is able to be removed from he boat without digging a hole.
    They all had to be abandoned.
    However, once the old rudder is out, building a mockup out of wood dowel and doorskin can lead to ideas you share with other dreamers.
    If that is comfortable, until you reach a concenus. Then get an experienceed guy/shop to build it, or yourself. Supervise it.

    Ebb opted for a single length shaft. I'm stuck with it. Also had a very talented welder create the armature using everdur flat plate (instead of
    smaller diameter rod like the original.) Committed self to the triangle rudder. Would change things, but no - too friggin late!

    [If you take a look at LF HERRESHOFF's ROZINANTE (www.woodenboat.com/) WoodenBoat sells plans, you'll find a drawing of this master's famous 28' daysailor.
    OK, cutaway full keel with keelhung rudder just like Ariel/Commander...... the Rozinante rudder is inspiring.
    It's nearly rectangular in length. If I had the time I'd mock up that rudder, maybe a bit taller, maybe tilt it up to fair with the hull like Alberg does with ours.....give it exactly the same square inches as Alberg designed.....and see what happens with the blade.
    Rectangular blades can be given an airfoil that would work like an airfoil. See if it can have some of the sexy roundness both master's have in their rudders.....but maybe a little less, just a little.......
    Anybody see that herreshoff on their boat?]

    A338 HAD A RECTANGULAR RUDDER WHEN I GOT IT. Still have it.
    It raced against other Ariels as SUN QUEST on San Francisco Bay.
    Wonder how it did, wonder how it steered VS the original that all the others still have?
    Steered fine for me when I sailed it. My experience very limited.
    Last edited by ebb; 03-05-2017 at 03:45 PM.

  10. #400
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    Sep 2001
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    Ebb, maybe you were looking for this on rudders?

    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...56-%28Ceili%29

    Go to page 10, post #136 to see rudder discussion. May be more elsewhere in thread, but you need to scroll to find . . .

  11. #401
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    Respectfully, Chance Smith

    my my my my.....yes, this guy.....can't say: Chance is 'one of the best'...
    Chance has the best damn control of methods and materials I've ever seen.
    Of course, that doesn't say it....whotduayeknow?
    He's the master! He does incredibly beauiful work!
    The photgraphs he's provided are wonderfully detailed. Even the ugly stuff looks good.

    And captcraig will find time well spent visiting there.
    Respectfully, me too.

    Thanks Bill!
    Last edited by ebb; 03-05-2014 at 11:09 AM.

  12. #402
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    That is quite a rudder project no doubt. Inspired and on my way to the shop, lol

  13. #403
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    Name:  DSC05630.jpg
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Size:  44.4 KB Removed the rudder last night and it appears to be pretty solid. There is a gap between the seperate boards which allows a little flex when pushing down on the trailing laying flat on a table. Would love to have a new one but... Can anyone explain or show pics of how this original rudder is assembled?

  14. #404
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    Descent Shoe

    Name:  DSC05612.jpg
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Size:  34.2 KBName:  DSC05617.jpg
Views: 130
Size:  56.7 KB The shoe looked good from the outside but I could see a puddle of water down inside the shoe, so I removed it to inspect the heel. Sand and dirt are inside the shoe

  15. #405
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    Name:  DSC05627.jpg
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Size:  61.8 KBName:  DSC05628.jpg
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Size:  32.5 KBName:  DSC05622.jpg
Views: 130
Size:  42.7 KB The heel in pretty good shape, shoe off, the red part on the inside is where water was puddled, the shoe cleaned up a little

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