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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #346
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283
    You also don't see it on a Choey Lee Offshore 27 which has keel hung rudder.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  2. #347
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,534

    that gudgeon strap

    I see it like this.
    There is no sleeve-bearing in the hull (bustle) where the rudder shaft exists the rudder tube.
    The rudder shaft tube is deliberately oversized to allow the whole rudder to be lifted up and shifted over just enough to bypass the heel fitting
    TO DROP THE RUDDER out of the boat. Haveta remove all that stuff on top of the shaft first.

    The strap is there to make sure that it doesn't happen on its own,
    for instance when you ground and the rudder wants to lift.
    The strap is your only guarantee that if the rudder lifts out of its seat (it's only 3/4" deep)
    it going to drop right back down into the bearing again.

    As you might expect, I personally don't like this what seems like a ratther funky method of keeping the all important rudder connected to the boat at all times. Almost an afterthought.
    My strap and others I've seen are/were flimsy to say the least. Amazing really.
    Mine was a piece of copper sheet that had its edges bent double on itself meeting in the middle.
    But it sure makes it easy to remove the rudder because you just back out a couple screws or remove a couple nuts and bend the copper strap out of the way with yer pinky.
    A lot easier than most boats to remove the rudder.
    Making it easy imco is a good thing.

    The strap seems to have worked these five decades. I know others have upgraded.
    I wouldn't go offshore without something a little more beefy.

    The tillerhead is all that will hold the rudder in/on the boat if the shaft unships from its bearing.
    However the tillerhead will not stop a freed shaft from dropping thru the tube.
    And knowing the shape and age of most tillerhead assemblys there is probably 15 minutes befor the whole rudder slips down the tube.

    Actually the gudgeon strap will keep the rudder from falling, altho it's not meant for that job.
    We have discussion here on more substantial 'strapping'. Might be good idea if you haven't rebuilt the keel where the rudder-shoe mounts!!!
    Last edited by ebb; 03-05-2017 at 02:50 PM.

  3. #348
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283
    Ebb,
    As I had expected, great wisdom and quality feedback once again. Thank you for taking the time to provide the feedback and excellent explanation. I hadn't thought of the oversize rudder tube, but you make perfect sense of it all.

    I wonder why Pearson found it necessary to build ours with oversize rudder tubes. As many are aware, Alberg designed many of the Bristols, Cape Dorys, and Albergs, non of which were built by their respective builders with this critical (in our case) strap.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  4. #349
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,534

    Arrow

    Thank you Chance!
    You know it don't have to be that much more diameter in the rudder tube.
    A quarter inch space 5 feet down to the heelbearing would triangulate to maybe an inch and a quarter? Don't know that for a fact. Have to remove the bearing at the top of the tube.
    Enough.
    And we got dem specs, mon!
    I know one Triton that has a sleeve bearing there in the hull (obviously to keep water out AND IMMOBILIZE THE SHAFT - Tritons have NO heel fitting - it's all gudgeons and pintles.
    Proximity to the water and bottom paint etc make it a crime to try to extract this bearing, can't do it with the shaft in place. It's up inside the boat! To remove this keel hung rudder everything has to be disassembled. Then you can access the bearing in the hull where the Ariel's isn't. It's not a good place to have a any fitting!

    It would be great to see a time progression of Albergian keel hung rudder installations.
    And see how things changed and if they progressed. Our unique bronze and wood rudders required Pearson to come up with clever (I say that gudgeonly), maybe just as unique, solutions. Does anybody else remove rudders like we do?
    I know, I know, most NEVER remove the rudder!!!!


    I kinow another Triton whose rudder was completely rebuilt. He didn't get the two sets of gudgeons and pintles aligned with the hull aperture AND
    the lower g&p casting broke just as he was turning and entering the seawall of his marina - the rudder went limp.
    An amazing sailor, he somehow averted disaster and ROWED into his slip.

    BUT that is to say our whimpy strap gudgeon has a forgiving nature.
    Low tech but it works, so it's smart, right?
    just needs a little extra attention.


    I know I mentioned this once befor.
    A disreputable Ariel appeared briefly in the yard - probably for some paint.
    Saw that the heel fitting was completely gone, GONE,
    the rudder shaft terminated in space.
    yet the skipper had somehow managed to steer her into the harbor.
    His gudgeon strap must have been doing all the work. You had to know it was there because it was so cruddy you couldn't really see it.
    Then she was gone.
    Last edited by ebb; 07-22-2011 at 12:23 PM.

  5. #350
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Forsyth GA
    Posts
    396
    ebb, When looking at the Triton and Ariel there are so many differences, the 2 shrouds versus the Ariels 3, the entire rudder layout. It would appear the Ariel is the blue water boat.

  6. #351
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,534
    Carl,
    Ayeno I can sing praises of an Ariel.
    It is a far prettier proportioned boat than the Triton to my eye.
    I like the masthead rig for its simplicity and its oversized mast.

    And the MORC (Midget Ocean Racer Club) tag may have ordained the three shroud configuration to Alberg. Any sailboat between 20' and 30'.
    could join the club that was founded in 1954, "inspired by the safe ocean cruising of the 17'9" Sopranino." So the club creates safety rule and ratings for small Ocean Racers. Doesn't seem to be any guidelines available on the net.
    We do know that nothing could change Alberg's conviction of what a safe sailboat's lines should be. "Under the guidance of Bill Shaw, a handicap rule, stressing safety, was created for cruising boats under 20'.
    Because other small cruising yachts were excluded from many ocean races, the maximum length was increased in1958 to just under 30'.

    I think the 29' Triton makes a gorgeous double headsail rig when it grows a short bowsprit and the jibstay moves to the masthead. Why Richard Moot's inspired conversion to 'Sobriquet' didn't produce a Triton revolution is hard to fathom. The pictures we have (Still possible to bring some up on the net.) show a visually exciting sleek boat that looks eager to voyage anywhere on the planet. And turn every eye at a Sunday parade on the bay.

    Regular Tritons have done just that.
    Atom (James Baldwin's Triton) twice circumnavigated. Imco this is the best Triton site on the net relative to the whole aspect of sailing Albergs.
    There are hundreds of generous tips and suggestions on this welcoming website.

    He made no wild changes, (didn't he convert to masthead?) and kept it simple.
    He may also have added the third shroud like many owners do. Not a big deal.
    Baldwin has inspired me to create (at least the possibilty) of floatation in the interior cabintry of litlgull.
    The Triton rudder is strange. I wonder what Badwin did to strengthen his.
    They have a similar (to A/C) dangerous corrosion problem in the shaft where a bolt for the blade is attached.
    The one I see on the hard in San Rafael is also thinner than the Ariel's and has added cleats to the outside of the blade for reinforcement. But don't know what is original. It is a wood and bronze but awkward in its overall design. I believe the original Ariel/Commander rudder asbuilt is a MASTERPIECE. YET the Triton rudder has been hanging around a half century on this very first glass sailboat production classic.

    Don't know if one is more naturally a bluewater boat than the other.
    All of the Alberg Fleet flies a bluewater flag.

    The list of necessary ocean cruising upgrades are probably nearly the same for both boats.
    Last edited by ebb; 07-23-2011 at 09:50 AM.

  7. #352
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Aptos, CA
    Posts
    45

    Another Rudder Shaft Replaced

    Greetings:
    My name is Dennis, and I've owned "Sinbin" since 1994. After 48 years, her rudder shaft came apart in my hands as I was dropping it down for inspection. I was happy it broke because I was on terra firma. Thanks to this discussion, I have, through the years, collected a stock tiller cap, a stock rudder bearing, and now a new rudder shoe thanks to a fine gentleman by the name of Chance.
    Svendsen's Boat Works in Alameda replaced the upper and lower shafts, the six attachment screws and the gudgeon, all in bronze. Excellent work and reasonable rates. I now realize I've had sloppy steering for 18 years.
    Anyway, I'd like to thank you folks for the info, and I'd like to recommend Svendsen's for your repairs.

  8. #353
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,534

    Exclamation new rudder

    In my opinion a new new rudder with 1" bronze shaft, the upper part bent to the original spec, plus the machining for the tiller head and the bottom that sits in the shoe... is a major undertaking.... requiring a great deal of expertise.

    Plus reproducing the inner rod attachments for the mahogany blade, and that woodwork itself... really impressive ! It's good to know that master carpenters still employ their art.
    And that Svendsens, a fine independant chandlery and rigging shop, is still in business, and can do the work.

    It's great you decided to replace the old with the same wonderful original rudder. An amazing combo of bronze and wood that will live unseen and underwater, for the most part,
    for another half century ! !

  9. #354
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Aptos, CA
    Posts
    45

    Rudder Repair

    Thanks. I figure if it's only once in 48 years, it can be done right. FYI - just made contact with Chesapeake Fasteners @ 800 315 8808 for some more silicon bronze fasteners. I am optimistic about them.
    -D.

  10. #355
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Northern Calif
    Posts
    99
    Craig, How has the seaming with 5200 worked out? I am getting close to doing the same with #331 before bottomcoat. Did you strip the rudder of bottem paint before applying the 5200?

    Tim

    Quote Originally Posted by c_amos View Post
    Thank you Bill for merging this thread into the other one...

    WRT the rudder in post #329. These rudders are misunderstood. The assumption (as I might have made) was that the planks seeming to separate indicates failure. The fact is that you can go out and buy the most beautiful new components and assemble your rudder... and if you build it out of wood it is going to wind up looking just like the one you remove.

    The mahogany planks are drilled through, and a 'sintered' bronze rod has been placed lengthwise through the socket. This is a pretty sound construction method. Now, after the boat has been in the water and water has gotten into the grain of the wood it starts to do what it did when it was in the woods and surrounded by it's friends.... it absorbs water and swells into a wonderful solid unit.

    The problem comes when we haul the boat, and the rudder starts to dry. The planks get gaps in them which we long to fill (I know, I did). Some construct elaborate systems of straps or fiberglass coatings to ensure the planks will stay together.....

    They (mostly) stay together on their own anyway.

    Wow, I am getting long winded here.

    You can make your own out of fiberglass. Make sure not to put too fine of a trailing edge on it. First it is not necessarily as hydrodynamic, but second the fine edge produces a turbulence that WILL make your rudder / tiller hum and vibrate.

    Keith did an absolutely masterful job with the rudder on Ariel Spirit (Hull #3) (I believe you will find it mentioned earlier in this thread). When my wife and I delivered her from MD to NC we found that the rudder would hum and lightly vibrate near 5 knots.... not a terrible issue, but I would not have chosen this... especially given the miles we have sailed our little ship.

    Yes, in this long and rambling post I need to get to my point.

    On Faith's last haul out (pre-cruise) we removed the sealant from between the planks, we fared some of the trailing edge with epoxy, then we filled the gaps back in with a bead of 3M 5200 that was then scraped so as to produce a thin 'link' between the boards.

    THis is tough to describe, but basically we wanted to fill and secure the planks but also allow them to swell when the hull was splashed. I wish I had taken some close up pictures, but picture filling in the gaps and then removing and smoothing the sealant with 'valleys' between the planks. That way the sealant was adhering to the edges, but not completely filing the void.

    Attachment 6614

    I can type more on this if it is helpful... I suspect I may have typed too much already.

    I will say that I did dive and scrub (caress?) the rudder often since.. and have not found any weakness. I will likely do a haul out after the oil spill clears and will update things then.



    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  11. #356
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Aptos, CA
    Posts
    45

    Paint and Caulk

    I concur w/Mr. Amos. Caulking the rudder is not necessary After caulking dry seams, I've found that as the wood swells due to moisture, it pushes the caulk out of the seams leaving one with wasted effort. Not being a racer, I don't like to remove paint. I figure the more coats over the mahogany the better. Also, have had good results keeping the moisture in the wooden rudder by wrapping it in plastic after it's surface dry.
    Have fun with your boat!
    -Dennis

  12. #357
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Walnut Creek and Sausalito
    Posts
    11

    TILLER FITTING FAILURE

    I was sailing under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday when all of a sudden the tiller came off in my hand. The 2 forks on the bronze tiller head failed, without warning. Luckily conditions were not too severe and we were able to motor back using vise grips as a tiller.

    Is there anybody in SAn Francisco area that might sell the tiller head or do I need the whole assembly? The rudder post is 1 inch diameter, keyed to aft.

    -Bob, Ariel 100

  13. #358
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Aptos, CA
    Posts
    45
    Hi Bob. Let me crawl around the garage and see what I come up with. Will know something by tomorrow. My number is 831 685 1560. -Dennis

  14. #359
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    Mar 2012
    Location
    Aptos, CA
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    45
    Bob of A100: The last two posts seem to have gone to Davey Jones - they've disappeared from my screen. I found Sinbin's 50 year old tiller cap and fork in the garage. If you're interested, the number is 831 685 1560 anytime. -Dennis

  15. #360
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    230
    I replaced the original on A-24 with a stronger one and held on to the original. If anyone needs one, let me know as I now have a different boat and have no need for it.

    Tim
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