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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    1,823

    Holey Moley Scott

    I tip my hat to you.

    Don't think you need to worry too much about the Harbor Channel being crowded, though. Once those other boaters see your mast pointing out from the bow like an evil prow they're going to give you a wide berth.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
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    447

    Rudder rehabilitation

    Commanderpete,

    You'd be surprised what damage you can do with your mast lowered. The fellow who bought my last boat managed to hit the bridge and dismast the boat. I don't know where the mast was at the time. There is an interesting electrical or phone line just past the bridge when you come in. If you pull the mast up too soon...well the result is not nice.

    There are some interesting scratch marks on the bottom side of the bridge. The height of the bridge above sea level varies based on the tide of course, and this surprises some people who get used to how far they play out their main sheet when they lower their mast.

    Some folks in the outer harbor do come zipping out of their slips into the harbor channel, and not always after careful consideration of the trajectories of those who are about to, or who have just raised or lowered their masts, and some of those are under sail power so they have right of way. It can get dicey. The simpler the tabernacle, the better.

    Also these tabernacle rigs have a lot of stability in the fore and aft direction, but very little lateral stability. You would not want to cause a force to be exerted on the mast to port or starboard while it is down. A weell designed boom guy set-up helps keep the boom from flopping over, but does not stay the mast. The aft lower shroud is released and the foreward shroud is slack. A quick turn to avoid a collision with a mast down at a 30 degree angle off the water and your aft lower shrouds and back stay released would not be my choice, particlularly when single handing. It is of course a good idea to keep your crew (if you have one) off the foredeck once the backdstay has been released.

    The sad thing about this tabernacle business is that it doesn't have very much to do with sailing, but it requires a lot of bucks to modify the rig to safely lower and raise the mast.I am fortunate to have purchased a boat with a rig that has already been tabernacled.
    Scott

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
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    821
    You can firm up the rudder play at the top end of the shaft with a Cutlass bearing of the proper size , did that to #45 this summer and it feels great . The repair is documented on the Ariel Yahoo site .

    Mike

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    447

    Smile Rudder rehabilitation

    Mike,

    Thank you for your reply to my question about the Ariel rudder.

    I looked at the photos of your cutlass bearing on the Yahoo Ariel site, but I did not see a written description of its use or installation on theYahoo site. I am new to that web site, so perhaps I wasn't looking in the right place.

    In any case, that's a very interesting solution to rudder shaft play. There does not seem to be a lot of play in my rudder, but there is a clunking noise when one turns the tiller sharply. I do have a spare rudder bearing. Hopefully that will solve part of my problem, although my surveyor tells me that I should also be worried about the bottom of the rudder, and the prior owners told me that they do not recommend taking the boat out into the ocean until the rudder is repaired, but were not specific about what was needed.

    Since I have not yet had my rudder out of the water, I don't know yet exactly what I have, or how much of a rudder is actually down there.

    Do I understand that you used the cutlass bearing instead of the designed rudder brearing, or was the cutlass bearing used in addition to the standard Ariel rudder bearing? Is there a posting or an uploaded file on the Yahoo site that describes in text form your fix for rudder play?
    Scott

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
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    821
    Scott,
    From what I saw , there really isn't much of a top bearing , just an O-ring in the ruddershaft cap .

    To read the details at Yahoo , go to the site , look for MESSAGES , and read the threads in July .
    If you need more info , let me know .

    My repair gives you 4" of bearing surface and it feels like new .

    Mike

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    447

    Question Rudder rehabilitation

    Mike,

    Thanks, the postings in the messages area of the Yahoo site begining in June 2001 and continuing thru July are very clear regarding the use of and specification for the cutlass bearing you used on your Ariel. I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction. I was given a cylindrical piece of plastic (pvc)and told it was the rudder bearing. The plastic cylinder has a rubber "o" ring on it.

    I do have one more question for you, however.

    Your June 26, 2001 posting on the Yahoo site states in part, "Got a piece of cutlass bearing stock , and made a bushing that goes down
    the fiberglass tube under the tiller fitting.
    I used 1 1/2" OD X 1" ID bearing stock , fits perfectly inside glass tube."

    Page 168 of the Ariel Association Manual shows a drawing of a "rudder post bearing and rudder post". The bearing depicted on that page appears to be identical to the part that I have. Am I to assume that your cutlass bearing section slips into the rudder post tube under this cylinder, or is your bearing a replacement part for the pvc unit depicted on page 168 of the manual?

    Thanks,
    Scott

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
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    821
    My bearing was a complete replacement as I had no bearing at all left in the rudder post.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    447

    Smile Ruder rehabilitation

    Mike,

    Thanks again. The picture is now complete. Fortunately I do have a brand new bearing, but I find your cutlass bearing solution to be quite intriguing.
    Scott

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,549
    Scott, Mike, me and my gal's crooked rudder tube will have to use the short bearing. the micarta original is too beat up, so Scott where did you say you got the new one? What is it made out of? I was thinking a replacement could be machined out of delrin just like the original with in and out O-rings

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,249

    Exclamation

    He Ebb, there's a tech drawing of the bearing in the manual. Check page 168

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    447

    rudder rehabilitation

    ebb,

    The rudder bearing I have is brand new, but came with the boat when I bought it. I am not aware source or of the manufacturer. It looks like it was manufactured by someone who knew what they were doing, and appears to be indentical to the drawings in the Association Maintenance Manual. What's it made of? I'm not sure. It is white plastic of some sort with rubber or synthetic "o" rings. It could be an original Pearson part for all I know, but as I say it is brand new.
    Scott

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626

    Motor size

    I can't resist getting in my two cents of free advice from a Great Lakes skipper regarding motor size. I used to have a 6 HP vinrude and found the motor very inadequate, at least in this environment.
    1. Reverse is terrible. When going into a slip in a wind, where it is necessary to maintain speed to maintain steerage, the motor cavitates in reverse and does little to stop the boat. This might be OK if you have a bulky crew with substantial mass, that is reliable. However, it is not a good scene with the Mrs.

    2. If you have to travel a distance to get to the open water, the difference in speed between and 6hp and your motor, or a larger one is significant (perhaps as much as 2 mph)

    3. At least on the Great Lakes, the Ariel does not do well in a chop under motor power. Relatively little wind or chop can stop it in its tracks. Power (and a power prop) make the difference.

    I have also had a 9.9 McCollough which did well, and now have a Yamaha 2 cycle 8hp which works well. The Yamaha is a light engine (about 62lbs, as I recall). I have moved the battery forward, and generally only fill the two gas cans half full (unless crossing large distances) to keep the stern light. I don't pull the engine - even in the winter - but then, I don't have to contend with salt water.

    So, in summary, if you are cruising, and sailing with the motor installed, I would go larger, not smaller. The 7.5 should do well, but make sure you have a power prop. That makes all the difference in the world.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    447

    rudder issues

    I finally completed most of my topside work, and went for my first sail. After encountering some steering trouble at sea last Monday, I hired a diver to take a look at the plans in the Association Maintenance Manual and then inspected on my rudder prior to a haul-out while my boat was in teh water.

    On Monday, the boat handled well in light winds, but when the wind picked up to about fifteen knots, the boat did not want to fall off from a close reach onto a beam reach even after the sails were relaxed, and I pulled the rufdder hard over. The sensation was that the rudder seemed to have little influence on the direction of th boat. The boat wanted to hold it's close reach course.

    The diver tells me that although the rudder looks very much like the one in the Association Maintenance Manual, the installation is not the same as shown in the manual. He tells me that the bronze shaft is one piece.

    He also tells me that the shaft seems well seated in the "shoe" on the bottom end, although he described the shoe as an extension of the back of the keel. He told me what I already know, and that is that the top of the shaft has a lot of play in it. I have a new bearing which appears to meet the specification in the manual.

    So today I attempted to install the new rudder bearing while my boat was in the water. I removed the tiller, and then removed the two (one was missing) setscrews on the chrome-bronze end cap that covers the upper shaft bearing. The setscrews removed easily, and the end cap now turns freely. I then removed the bolt in the forward side of the chrome-bronze tiller head fitting.

    The bolt removed easily, but the chrome-bronze tiller head fitting won't budge. The plan in the manual show a key or keyway, which extends for two inches from the top of the bronze shaft downward, identified on page 170 as "Keyway 1/4" Key".

    I am not sure what that means, but from what I can see of my bronze shaft it appears to be perfectly round. I can find no drawing of the tiller head fitting in the manual, although I have a drawing of the shaft, one of the glass tube, and upper bearing, and one of the rudder shoe.

    Now my chrome-bronze tiller head fitting, which is stuck to the bronze rudder shaft, can be lifted (along with the bronze shaft) by hand to a position about one inch or more above the top of the chrome-bronze end cap.

    My tiller head fitting has a slit in the front, presumably so that when one tightens the bolt on the front side it compresses the fitting onto the shaft. Again, I can't get the fitting off the cap.

    My questions are:

    Is this normal? Should the rudder be able to slide upon the tube a distance of one or more inches?

    How on earth do you get the tiller head fitting off the bronze shaft without damaging it?
    Last edited by Bill; 08-20-2006 at 01:11 AM.
    Scott

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,549
    That bronze bolt that holds the tiller head to the ruddershaft squeezes the tillerhead casting to the shaft. This is a very good thing. After backing off the bolt, try to pry it very slightly apart with the blade of a screwdriver so that it will slip off. Like maybe just tap the blade in the crack. When it loosens tap the tillerhead strate UP.

    To my knowledge nothing keeps the rudder itself from rising except its weight and the bottom of the bustle. If there is a lot of room between the top of the rudder and the bottom of the hull your rudder has cleared the housing of the shoe. The gudgeon strap is what keeps it aimed at the shoe. When you remove your rudder you first will have to remove this gudgeon.

    The reason you have only a bearing under the tillerhead and NOT at the bottom of the bustle where the shaft emerges is so that when you remove the gudgeon the rudder can be moved over enough to clear the shoe so the rudder can be dropped out of the boat.

    IMCO the gudgeon should be placed in such a way so that if a grounding occurs the rudder does NOT lift out of the shoe. There should be some play up and down but not so that a stone or whatever could get into the hole in the shoe. I don't know if this is an issue on as-builts as 338 came without the strap gudgeon.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    447

    Question

    Thanks Ebb,

    That helps explain what is going on. My diver says that so far the rudder looks pretty good and he says that the rudder is seated well in the shoe or whatever that is down there at the bottom of my possibly modified rudder, but I am concerned about the ability of the rudder to rise one inch or more, as it does now, if that causes the bottom of the shaft to clear the shoe, and as you say possibly come out of the shoe.

    How far should the rudder shaft lift the tiller head fitting above the end cap? In other words about what distance is normal, or how far before the bottom lifts clear of the shoe?

    By the way, I did force a screwdriver into that crack. I gently pried it and even tapped it with my plastic hammer, but I was gentle about it. I did not want to break the fitting. The fitting didn't budge.

    I tried to push upward by putting pressure upwards on the bottom of the fitting but it wouldn't budge.

    It would seem to me that if one tapped up on the fitting, one would have to do so while holding securely with a clamp of some sort onto the bronze shaft, or else in my case since my shaft floats upwards by one inch or so, I would be tapping the whole bronze shaft upwards against the gudgeon, the bottom of the hull or whatever else holds it down there.

    At present my diver sees no need to otherwise remove the rudder, which appears to be in good shape and has apparently already had a full-length shaft installed to replace the originally installed unit.

    My objective is to replace the upper bearing and to otherwise with a diver insure that my rudder is safe, before I head fifteen miles away across more or less open ocean to the marine yard where I intend to haul out for the first time. Since I had some steering problems last Monday in fifteen knots of wind, I am particularly wary. On the other hand it was my first trip to sea in Augustine, and the turkey at the helm could have been part of my steering problem...Although I have experience sailing a variety of fin and full keel boats in all sorts of sea and wind conditions, and have previously broken off two rudders on fin keel boats while at sea, I am brand new to the Pearson Ariel, have never before sailed on one, and am therefore a novice in this regard. I did have the traveler secured on the high side and hadn't yet moved it into a low side (leeward) position after a prior tack when I was attempting to fall off. That would have given me somewhat more weather helm I assume, but that much? I don't think so.

    I have encountered boats that won't tack, but not being able to fall off only happened to me once before, and that boat had lost it's rudder. Then again we were eventually able to fall off and did not have any other problems that day.

    My problem could just be the need of a top bearing, or could have resulted if the shaft for some reason rose out of the shoe or for some other reason was binding below. However my diver and I played wit the rudder in the water two days ago and it seems to be working just fine.

    So all thoughts on this matter will be helpful.

    Thanks
    Scott

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