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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill@ariel231 View Post
    Ed

    Yikes! I don't know if anyone has voluntarily done this on a flat surface. Mr. Tim (A-24) has talked about hauling out on a mud berth for his rudder repair.

    I'd suggest thinking about finding a place to haul out that has some slope to it... Or... maybe drying out on with some jack stands or a cradle positioned in the water before the tide runs out. The attached cartoon shows some possible waterlines. It looks like the boat should recover just fine, but wave action may put water in the cockpit/icebox/lockers... (Are there any Naval Architects in the house??)

    cheers, and good luck
    Bill
    Sounds like you need to give that boat some legs. I think there was an article in Good Ole Boat Magazine a number of years ago where a lady beached her boat and used these poles strapped to the toerail on both sides to keep it upright while she painted the bottom. I guess it worked like a charm because the keel was relatively long so it was stable like that.
    -km
    aka, "sell out"
    S/V Beyond the Sea
    C&C 35 mkIII

  2. #257
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    legs for a Triton - careening an Alberg 30

    www.atomvoyages.com
    click Articles
    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________

    SORRY:
    Thought I'd check em out again, but for some *#&^@!?)(#!! reason can't get the said Article OR Project to come up!

    The legs were take apart poles, I believe, with custom pads for feet, that were not lashed to the uppers but to the aft lower plate - and had lines leading from the feet fore and aft. No way could you go cruising without them.

    If you carried other poles viz spinaker, my guess is to be usable for legs on an Ariel (ie lashed to the shrouds) they'd have to be at least 10'.

    http://www.alberg30.org/maintenance/...ized/careening
    I guess technicly careening can mean leaning the boat more to one side than the other - just as it means resting the ship on its bilge. This site takes the upright approach and could possibly be a way of getting the rudder OUT if you want to dig a 30" deep hole on what you're sitting on. (You need a 28" drop to clear the top of the rudder shaft from the bottom of the rudder tube.)
    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________
    Dream of a maintenance-free s.s. and foam rudder?....this taken from a skipper's list of things to do at HAULOUT From a 'geocities' site:

    "Drill hole in lowest point of rudder to drain water.
    Rusty water or lots of water = bad.
    Epoxy hole shut befor refloating."
    Last edited by ebb; 08-17-2007 at 08:45 AM.

  3. #258
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    Baldwin's Give Your Boat Some Legs

    (this could be a new thread - but it still is apropos access to the rudder)

    Jim Baldwin's Sailnet article now comes up using the address in the previous post.
    If whisker and spinaker poles don't have a place on your cruising A/C then this invention of Jim's is fantastic. He uses s.s. pipe/tube. Relatively common 6061T6 aluminum might work as well.

    The article is not complete in that there are no closeups of the fittings. Most important is the method of attachment of a leg to the chainplate. I believe Jim temporaryly removes the aft lowers, using that plate.*

    Some exploration of 'Some Legs' for the Commander or Ariel should probably be done on the hard. I have trouble 'seeing' the legs at the top 'attached' to a single point on top of the chain plate, obviously by a bolt or pin. Couldn't the leg be lashed in some fashion right to the upper shroud, which is almost vertical? In other words I would rather have a two point tie to the upper shroud in order to have a stiffer leg. One lashing at deck level, another a couple feet higher. What am I missing here?

    Another thought is that if the center shroud is used, the fore and aft lowers on either side could be employed to position and steady the legs, again by lashing. Maybe - like the feet below - a plywood devise that clamps to the shrouds with a couple clamps for the leg poles could be designed. Ariels with inboard shrouds might benefit with a gizmo that clamped to the shrouds but standoff the proper distance outboard for the legs to be at a optimal angle. Seems to me that an optimal angle would be slightly knock-kneed, wider at the bottom than the top.

    Another 'exploration' is necessary to articulate the footpads. Seems to me the pad to pole joint has to be a universal type - able to lay flat at whatever angle the boat is to the surface. How?

    Another problem is whether the legs can or ought to be adjusted IF the boat decides to lean and a foot starts sinking?

    Another issue is that the flat part of the keel is aft of the shrouds. Is there any tendancy of the A/C to nose forward or downward? An inclined beach would counter that problem if the boat is bow in. Yet most of the Ariel's sitting surface is under the companionway - the keel starts upward from a point between the two big windows in the cabin - that might put "unintended" pressure on the legs at the shrouds.

    That means there is less than 6' of horizontal keel surface (in the 25' length of an A/C). And all of that is concentrated in the rear half. If you wanted to remove the rudder, it would be dicey to say the least, even tied to side of a quay.
    Has anybody done this - tied off at dock side and have the tide go out to work on the bottom?
    A THIRD LEG MAY BE NEEDED AT THE BOW. (just being difficult - and voluminous as somebody once said! )
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________
    Anybody carrying oars (see appropriate archives) might find that they could be adapted to leg duty. Blade up with slip on footpad over the handle, and a clever, simple attachment of the blade end to the shrouds...
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________
    *So far as I know Jim Baldwin is the only one on the Web who has been thoughtful enough to share his Boat Legs invention. His boat is a 28' Pearson Triton, BIG sister to the A/C. He is a double circumnavigator, and MORE than obviously knows what he is doing. Don't mean to second guess or demean in any way whatsoever his methods, ways, or means. I'm positive that knowing how to stand your boat up is as important as sailing it, or climbing the mast. My intent is Ariel specific, and hopefully to get to the root of things with discussion. I could be wrong. And could be assuming too much.
    Last edited by ebb; 08-17-2007 at 09:05 AM.

  4. #259
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    alteration to fiberglass rudder

    Per Ebb's challenge (in post #253) I'll describe my method of repair for A-231's rudder.

    Disclaimer and Warning:
    If you have a functioning plank rudder leave it alone. This method is not a simple sheathing of the current rudder. The end product is a fiberglass rudder with a wood core. If your rudder is has a couple splits, has a solid shaft and you really, really need a boat project then this method may be for you. I have no personal objection to any approach to rudder repairs that are safe. I make no claim this is by any means a recommended method of repair to the Ariel/Commander rudder. It has however, worked for me for the last 10 years.

    Problem description:
    • When we acquired A-231, the rudder had failed in the same manner as Tim’s on A-24 ( a vertical break from the propeller aperture to the top).
    • A P.O.’s attempt to repair the rudder looked to be un-reinforced thickened epoxy to glue the broken halves together. As a result, I had a series of bad repairs to address or the need to fabricate a new rudder from scratch…
    • I elected to sheath A-231’s rudder while keeping in mind the many failed rudders I’ve seen around boatyards. Most sheathed rudders I’ve observed have been simple affairs of 6oz cloth with no attempt to keep the actual rudder core dry. The most common failures I observed were the result of (1) a poor bond between the rudder skin and the rudder shaft, (2) freeze damage or swelling from the resulting water entry, least common was (3) trauma to the rudder skin from a grounding. Many of these fixes did more harm than good as the fiberglass skin often just trapped water and led to early failure from rot. Clearly water entry in a sheathed rudder is the root cause of failures…
    • A-231’s rudder is essentially a fiberglass rudder with a wood core. The difference from a traditional fiberglass fairing are: first, a thick skin over the bulk of the rudder (two layers of 6oz cloth and a layer of mat yielding a 1/8” - 3/16" skin), and second, a significant effort spent on sealing the joint between the rudder shaft and the wood core of the rudder. For A-231, the rudder shaft is sealed with both a ½ inch of thickened epoxy with a secondary seal of 3M 5200 in a groove at the fiberglass/shaft boundary.

      The following entries show the steps followed in A-231’s rudder repair.
    Last edited by bill@ariel231; 10-20-2007 at 04:13 PM.

  5. #260
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    steps 1 and 2

    steps 1 and 2:________________________________________________ _____
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  6. #261
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    Step 3

    step 3:________________________________________________ ___________
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  7. #262
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    step 4

    step 4:________________________________________________ __________
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  8. #263
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    step 5

    step 5:______________________________
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  9. #264
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    The 5200 seal on top of ½” of glass may be overkill but I’m a belt and suspenders kind of guy…. Plus it was an excuse to use yet another power tool on a otherwise simple project.

    cheers,
    bill@ariel231

    ps. one last word of caution... the radius of the leading edge of the rudder will grow as a result of the additional glass. as a result, the radius of the channel in the trailing edge of the keel will also need to be increased to make room. On A-231 this was accomplished with a 1" sanding drum chucked into a RotoZip (a sort of overgrown dremel). If you omit this step the rudder will grind against the trailing edge of the keel.
    Last edited by bill@ariel231; 10-20-2007 at 04:20 PM.

  10. #265
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    wood core fiberglass rudder

    Bill is text book on his rudder reburbishment!


    If I may comment....
    Fiberglass rudder with wood core imco is absolutely the correct concept.

    Water or callit water vapor will get into wood that lives under water no matter what is done to encapsulate it. Nothing wrong with that except that the wood will want to swell and move. So layers of glass and matt are called for to immobilize the 'core' as much as possible.

    I'd emphasize to some readers that the best plastic to use is twopart epoxy. Vinylester could be a possible second choice. Polyester should not be used in this ap.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
    Wrapping the ruddershaft.
    It is my opinion you can wrap the ruddershaft with CLOTH layers of glass. This isnn't clear in the cads. Observe how much room there is if you don't have the original wood rudder on your keel. The original rudder has the bronze shaft exposed with the blade carefully tabbed onto the aft side of the metal. There should be plenty of room to take a few turns of glass around the shaft. Epoxy sticks pretty well to cleaned up bronze. It will go a long way to welding the different materials together: wood, metal, frp. Including perhaps some questionable bolts and screws hidden inside the wood.
    As bill says: In wrapping the shaft keep in mind the turning of the rudder. You don't want to hamper its radius/swing. I would, as bill suggests, I think, keep the wraps to 6oz cloth, no xmatt. The buildup of 6oz cloth is minimal. Two layers is good, but one or two more may be possible.
    [Make up a layer test of scrap fabric and epoxy and measure the finished thickness. Wrap something bendable like cardboard of the same thinkness around the shaft while it's on the boat and see what if any limits have been added to the swing of the rudder.]
    GOOD suggestion to clean out the cove in the end of the keel once the rudder is removed. Best chance you'll ever get - and you can barrier coat it too. Creating depth is good, width may be a bit of a problem, depending on how skinny your keel is overall at the rudder. (Rotary rubber drum/sanding sleeves seem to be becoming scarce. One catalog source is Klingspor, www.woodworkingshop.com
    You used to be able to buy sanding sleeves/drums in sets for pretty cheap. But if you have to get singles: a 1 1/2" sleeve/drum in a drill will fit nicely the cove in the keel, coarse grit. So, of course will the 1"!!! If you are renovating the boat, it is not possible to do it without a complete set of drums.
    Apply the 6oz cloth at a bias (45 degrees) around the shaft, it'll double the strength and there will be no puckerings.
    Actual work-in-progress photos would have been great for this important upgrade variation. Oh well, next time!
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
    As a matter of curiousity: The original lines drawings, presumably by Alberg, shows the rudder shaft as 1 1/2" D. Almost as if the original shaft was to have been wood. The 'sternpost' is 2" across on the drawing. Our 1" bronze shaft translates to a much thinner rudder at its leading edge. Could say that fiberglassing as above brings the rudder closer to Alberg (vs Pearson) spec! And more hydrodynamic off the thicker end of the keel. I wonder if anybody will take the opportunity to add some modern foil curves to the blade and skinny down the trailing edge? A wood core fiberglass rudder would be a good opportunity, but ofcourse there would be no going back. Foil shaping may help correct stalling and steering problems some have mentioned?
    Last edited by ebb; 10-22-2007 at 07:33 AM.

  11. #266
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    Thanks ebb... back in 96 when i did the rudder i had no thought about photos of the small stuff (i was more worried about deck, keel & diesel issues). hopefully the next candidate (perhaps the next owner of A-24) will indulge us with pictures.

    You are right. 2 part epoxy was my choice. As i think about it now, i recall the shaft end and the heel were done with 6oz cloth and thickened epoxy. I was probably used thickened epoxy and chopped glass in the joint for the rudder strap. once it set, a dremel was used to reshape the profile of the rudder in the areas that were glassed. two to three layers of bias cut 6oz cloth on the edges are the right answer. Mat won't make the sharp turn at the edges.

    none of this work necessarily leaves me with less work in the spring. The rudder gets a complete health check before bottom paint is applied and the 5200 seal is checked and renewed if necessary. The joint most likely to move is the top most. The lower section of the rudder shaft isn't subject to a lot of torsion. I spend time on this check every year because while there may be a low probalility of failure, the consequence is a time consuming repair if water ever got to the core.

    cheers,
    bill@ariel231
    Last edited by bill@ariel231; 10-21-2007 at 05:43 PM.

  12. #267
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    11 years?!!!!

    OK!
    Could be said to be a good test - by any reckoning.

    An underwater wood rudder on a plastic boat is incongruous to me.
    It's not an eyecatching sweep of varnished coaming or accents like the cabin rails.
    The original A/C rudder is a great piece of high end bronze and mahogany craftmanship.
    Not only is this astonishing artwork hidden under water but it works real hard and has done so for many, for many many soggy miles - for decades.

    I'd argue that the rudder should have originally been woodcore fiberglass - in keeping with the wonderful new plastic hull material and glass/balsa composite of the deck of the '60s.
    I guess materials and engineering weren't up to the old tried and true back then.

    But now it can be put aright!
    Last edited by ebb; 10-22-2007 at 11:32 AM.

  13. #268
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    I just hauled 387 out for my first time. Overall things look pretty good. I was surprised at the lack of biofouling since the bottom hasn't seen new paint for (I'm guessing since I just bought the boat last winter) at least 4 years. I plan to remove the seven layers of bottom paint and replace with new trinidad, replace/remove all thruhulls and replace with correct seacocks and do the topsides with brightsides.

    The rudder, is another story however, and seems in very poor condition. I have always felt that the rudder didn't respond as I felt it should so really this should come as no surprise. I would like to remove it from the boat for repair. It appears that one needs to remove that gudgeon strap, pull the ruddder up and move sideways and drop. Simple enough but what is the best way to take out the pins the hold the gudgeon? The pins on mine are flush with the strap. Do you just pound them out with a hammer? Can they be reset?

    Any help would be great!

    Cheers,


    Andrew
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  14. #269
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    Hi gudgeon!

    Andrew, Welcome to the real world of renovation.
    You perhaps have already started on the rudder....
    Remember to take the sleeve bearing out....

    I''d forensic the strap.
    The strap was probably put on last at the factory, so that's the place to begin.
    Strip the paint off down to the metal to see what's there and how it's put together. If it's original and tired and you are going to rebuild the rudder, you might be putting on a new gudgeon and new fastenings.
    It's unlikely that all underwater bronzes are the same alloy, so things may have crystalized or leached or got tired.
    Or if it's just like new, maybe not. It is bordering on antique so it'll be instructive how it was done on your boat, and you may want to rebuild or restore exactly whats there.

    Photos.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________
    To take pins out, drill into the pin a little way (1/4"?) with a slightly undersized drillbit - to destroy the peened head. Then punch the pin out.
    Can't be used again.
    If you find the gudgeon strap is fastened with peened over rod then it almost certainly is pure soft copper - and will look pink. Which is what tired bronze alloys look like. That gudgeon itself couldn't take too much banging with the ballpeen hammer. Peening requires a backing iron, so you'd need someone when putting the gudgeon back on to hold something immovable against the pin on the other side.
    I barely managed to pin the ruddershoe on to 338 using silicon rod. The stuff don't peen worth a damn. Down at the bottom of the boat I could clamp on a piece of iron plate as a backer - which can't be done with the gudgeon and mounted rudder in place. I should have heated presized rod pins to dull red with Mapp gas to anneal them, let them cool, position them, then attempted to peen the heads. The rudder shoe is a big ole casting and I peened the rod into chamfered holes.
    Thing is, when you start peening copper alloys they start hardening again.
    You'll probably use silicon bronze machine bolts for the strap when putting it back together. You might find solid copper rivets and burrs of large size and length from a woodboat building source.
    Last edited by ebb; 03-07-2008 at 08:48 AM.

  15. #270
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    The rudder doesn't look to bad to me. You could just reinforce/repair the tip.

    Since you have concrete under the boat, I think you're going to need to disassemble the upper rudder shaft from the rudder in order to drop it.

    The project will probably escalate into a whole new rudder.

    Not sure about the handling problems you've been experiencing. Is the wood loose from the shafts?

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