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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #211
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Central Illinois, 9 mi. South of Decatur
    Posts
    63

    Rudder Discussion

    I went through the same discussion on what to seal my new rudder with. Some of the guys said to use "Old Salem Sealer"; I did and it has done really well; I can keep an eye on the wood an fasteners; I don't even anti-foul it.
    In fresh water we swim quite a bit and I just wipe it down with a sponge.

  2. #212
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
    Posts
    626
    As I recall. it was the Interlux wood sealer available at West

  3. #213
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Larchmont, NY
    Posts
    43

    The Rudder Question

    Sorry for the misquote, ebb - must be the acetone.

    Thanks for that thread link, Tim. Very enlightening and recommended to members. And a beautiful rudder.

    So - I think I'll go with the epoxy prime coat (Awlgrip 545 or similar) and then bottom paint for the finish. Forget about glassing it in for protection.

    The remaining question is strength of the rudder blade at the seam between the two pieces. Tim, your rudder looks like 3 pieces? But it was encapsulated all this time so ostensibly the glass added strength.

    I've got the three original drift pins in there and the the grain is reversed on the stacking of the two pieces - the seam is filled with bedding compound.

    Don't know why I am so nervous about the strength - should I be??

  4. #214
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,543

    comparing rudder strength

    It has been observed that a stand alone skeg or balanced rudder has enormous forces acting on it that a keel hung rudder doesn't experience.

    Trying to remember, but the rudders mentioned on this site don't talk much if at all about the wood falling off - it is about metal: the shoe has a number of issues, corrosion at the bolt connection of the planks to the shaft, the shaft corroding up in the tube, the shaft wearing out the bearing at the tiller head. The original rudder engineering seems to have done just fine for four decades. Right?

    The keel hung rudder is exactly where a rudder should be. Protected, very little stress on the blade, less force needed to steer. Can't back the boat up so good. tho.
    Last edited by ebb; 05-11-2007 at 06:58 AM.

  5. #215
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    230
    Kenarang Ebb Wrote:
    "The original rudder engineering seems to have done just fine for four decades. Right?"

    This is what I keep coming back to everytime I find something "weird" about my boat which occurs daily. Upon close inspection under the waterline I feel like my boat shouldn't float, but it did, for a long time now. My rudder was in remarkable shape having been encapsulated for so long (at least 32 years) and like I mentioned earlier, I am going to paint it and that's it. Rudders are like chains, the weakest part that gives can cause the entire thing to fail. If the mahogany and bronze components (shaft, etc) are in good shape I would think it's fine without modification.
    Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 05-08-2007 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #216
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Larchmont, NY
    Posts
    43
    The old rudder had the metal straps that other owners have mentioned but I'm inclined to agree that they were added afterwards - completely out of line with the water flow.

    I'm going to prime that rudder up and bottom paint it and let 'er fly. thanks.

  7. #217
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    1,823
    Beautiful rudder there Cup. That mahogony is so nice, seems a shame to cover it up

  8. #218
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Hollywood, FL
    Posts
    12

    Removing rudder in water

    Hi Guys,

    I'm a new owner of Commander 164. Just bought her a month ago. I'm in the Miami area. The boat drifted from her mooring, went aground and half of the wooden rudder is gone. I'd like to know how feasable it would be to remove the rudder while she is in the water. I didn't see this issue addressed in any of the rudder threads. The top of the rudder post looks well above the waterline. It seems like the only issue would be to remove the tiller head and the gudgeon strap. It could take over a week or two to rebuild the rudder. Do you think this is doable in the water. Having her hauled and stored on land for 1 week here would cost $475 I could use that money toward the repair instead. What do you think? Am I overlooking something important?

    Barry
    Hollywood, FL

  9. #219
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,543
    CONGRATS on 164!
    Commander Fleet has to answer this one.

    But how easy is it for you to get at the fastening(s) holding the strap around the rudder post? Lots of bottom paint crud? What's the fastening head - hex, slot heads? Will you be able to turn them? How long can you stay under water?

    If the vessel had recent work done on the rudder (so that the strap, if it is indeed still a strap there and not a DFO replacement) is free of decades of buildup) it could be feasible. Got scuba?
    Last edited by ebb; 06-22-2007 at 12:36 PM.

  10. #220
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
    Posts
    1,823
    We love crazy schemes around here

    How about this:

    Run the boat aground in a good spot

    Use a mask and snorkel with extension tube

    Use a cheap air drill ($10 at Harbor Freight) Borrow a compressor.

    http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=94585

    With a wire brush attachment, expose the screw heads

    Drill the screws out

    Tie a rope on the rudder

    Back into deeper water and drop the rudder

    Post pictures here

    Of course, I've never tried anything like this

  11. #221
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Narragansett Bay, R.I.
    Posts
    597
    while we are on the subject of crazy schemes.. (this might work for both C-164 and Mr Tim's A-24)

    what about sistering the current rudder with two plywood skins through bolted over the current rudder? ... I'm thinking 1/4 inch marine plywood precut and painted before installation in the water.... It might work for a season or so..


    I think this could be done in shallow water without removing the rudder.
    Attached Images  
    Last edited by bill@ariel231; 06-25-2007 at 01:28 PM.

  12. #222
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    230
    Bill there are times I feel as though the Force guides us here on the forum. I too am thinking of the old plywood sandwhich to get mine to work this summer. I failed to mention in my post that the top shaft did get pulled out of the rudder cap with the force of the twisted rode and I couldn't dive down to ook for it as I was with my family and we were in about 20 feet of water. I was thinking something on the line of (don't laugh and remember this needs to last only a couple months) a steel water pipe to drop down into or put up through the rudder tube then screw on a "T" fitting so that I can have the lateral piece to help spread the load of the rudder. The lateral piece will act like the bronze piece bolted to the original shaft providing support. Then I might sandwhich and through bolt as your diagram suggests to the rudder that is left. This will certainly be a fair-weather sailing repair and I already know I can make it back to my mooring just by the motor in the well if it fails, but if it gets me to September and I get a few sails out of it I'm golden. Plus it's a cheap simple repair and could be done in the grace period at low tide if I dry dock next to the club. My future "new" rudder will have a shaft going all the way down and will be reinforced with FRP somehow so it's bulletproof. I know the buoyancy needs to be as close to nuetral as possible, but my future rudder will be bulletproof possibly at that expence. I still haven't worked out the details on the new one yet as I have this fall and winter to do so.

  13. #223
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Narragansett Bay, R.I.
    Posts
    597
    I'm sure you'll have a viable fix lined up soon... we'll want underwater photos of course that should be a first on this forum!

    oh by the way, you might want to look into that commander getting parted out... her rudder may also be a great option in the near term.

    here are her sails.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILS...mZ250110199285, her logo plates have also found a home on the Lucky Dawg... http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...5764#post15764
    Last edited by bill@ariel231; 06-25-2007 at 07:23 PM.

  14. #224
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by bill@ariel231 View Post
    I'm sure you'll have a viable fix lined up soon... we'll want underwater photos of course that should be a first on this forum!
    Underwater pictures huh? How about a bunch taken after she's sitting in the mud at low tide? Besides, have I ever dissapointed in the picture category.

    Next week is when the festivities will happen if all goes as planned. I have a basic plan in my head right now, but it will not be until I get a real good look that I can proceed. The river we keep the boat in has quite a current, so I may not be able to dive except on the slack tide. If I can't dive, then I have to wait until she's sitting on themud. This may very well be a two tide job. We'll see. Stay tuned.

  15. #225
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,543
    We need some pix of the rudder being extracted when yer beached - or mudded as the case may be. Bring a shovel.


    Rudder neutral buoyancy?
    338's 'straight' 1" bronze post and some pieces of 1/8" bar stock (instead of allthread rod and nuts) weigh in (just the metal) at 21#. Wood floats, and would minus some weight if you were going with a stack of planks on a traditional rebuild. On the other hand, I would guess the foam and fiberglass I'm using will probably add to the overall weight. To be honest.

    How do you weigh an immersed rudder? Might be good to know.

    Thing is, neutral buoyancy isn't really possible if you're going to use 6' of 1" bronze rod for your rudder post! Or have I got it wrong?

    How did Carl Alberg figure it?
    Last edited by ebb; 06-26-2007 at 05:25 PM.

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