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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #136
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    Good price for 655 Bronze rod.

    Took a quick look at onlinemetals.com ($160) and Mcmaster Carr ($188). Then you have shipping...

    By the way, Welcome Aboard

  2. #137
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    Couple of questions on the drift pins that go through the wood

    Would you use threaded rod?

    Instead of that, can you use solid bronze and cut threads in the end for the screws? What kind of tool does that?

    How would the pins be secured to the rudder shaft. Just hammer the end that comes out the hole in the shaft? Weld it?

  3. #138
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    Howdy,
    338's silicon bronze shoe was cast over in Richmond at California Castings.
    From too many posts here you may have discovered that mine is oversize in that it follows the specs in the Manual. I don't know if the manganese b. rudder shoe available here on the site follows those specs. I understand the m.b. shoe has all the holes drilled and it's polished and ready to mount, and you can get your name on it, too, wow.

    You can borrow my mold, which has the original motheaten one off 338 inside. (I straightened the sides which had been pulled in by bolts and filled in the corrosion with bondo, side holes too - and made the sides of the shoe a full 1/4") Unless you are particularly handy or have access to a machine shop, drilling the 3/4" hole for the shaft is a bit of a problem. Some would have to make an elaborate jig, while someone like Mike Goodwin for sure would probably do it behind his back.

  4. #139
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    Hey C'pete,
    Use solid rod, fills the hole better. Threaded rod leaves spaces that would be hard to fill. Solid rod fills the bore hole exactly.
    Easy to turn threads in copper
    and why not tap the holes in the shaft for threaded rod/bolt also?

    The hole would not have to go all the way thru.
    The hole is essentially smaller not being a full size bore.
    Threading the plank rods into a BLIND threaded hole has to be the cleanest, friendliest attachment method to the shaft. If you can keep the rod/bolt from going thru you will have less exposure to corrosion at that critical point - the wood of the rudder comes right up to the shaft in a 1/2-round dado and will beautifully cover that rod/bolt connection with bedding compound or rubber. No exposure there at that critical juncture if your alloys don't match exactly.
    Last edited by ebb; 07-25-2016 at 06:28 PM.

  5. #140
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    Feb 2005
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    Anchorage, AK boat in SF Bay, CA
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    34

    Rudder Shoe

    Ebb, Wow! That may be just the thing! My brother in Brownsville is a bit of an amatuer machinist and should be able to help me out there, I think he can do the work on the shaft as well. My specialty is the woodworking side. How much did they charge you to cast your shoe? Maybe I should have a few done for others who might want them in the future...
    I'm thinking I will keep the bend design for 2 reasons 1.reduced stress where the bolts enter the shaft 2. Easier to get the rudder in/out without digging a trench. But I want to do away with the cutout and instead bore an angled hole for the bend. This should add some strength to the attachment. Any thoughts from those who have done a rudder rebuild?
    On a slightly different note, when I was down last weekend I talked to Gene Roberts and he said there were improved tiller bearings & seals available, anyone know who to contact about these?

  6. #141
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    Feb 2005
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    Anchorage, AK boat in SF Bay, CA
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    34

    rods

    CP,
    I was thinking about that topic, I will use solid rod of the same silicon bronze and either cut threads to screw rod into shaft or weld onto shaft directly. As added security I may pean the end of the rod onto the shaft. The threads are just cut with tap & die. I will ask my brother, the machinist about all this, he'll know better than I...

  7. #142
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    Sep 2001
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    Orinda, California
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    Tim, do "searches" on rudder shoe, rudder, rudder shaft, etc. and you will soon be up to speed on these subjects. A good bit of reading involved, but it will be worth the effort.

  8. #143
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    rudders

    Bill's right. There's beaucoo stuff to wade thru, should do it, it's worth it. Stick to the traditional rudder building/repair threads. Explore this site here and you'll find Admiral Bill offers the shaft sleeve bearing at cost. This is the bearing that sits on top of the fiberglass rudder tube underneath the chrome cap.

    The bend in the shaft, the two piece rudder shaft with the top part of the shaft bent, is the proper restoration rudder to make new. The upper shaft is bent to provide support for the upper part of the blade. This allows the blade to be cut away below to swing the prop for those boats with inboard engines. Evidently all rudders were built the same way, with the crooked shaft, but the blade was assembled without the cutout for OB models.

    (338, an OB model with a well, had a hollow area glassed in where the corresponding gap in the keel for the prop would have been had it been an inboard.)

    Many OB models have an "after market" single piece straight-thru shaft for their new blade, when a rebuild was needed. IMCO this is the easier design to make. All rudders are one piece and all one piece rudders will require that a hole be dug for removal - or the vessel to be lifted. The seemingly insignificant strap gudgeon is a very important part of the rudder system and has to be designed into any rebuild of any description.
    Last edited by ebb; 02-25-2005 at 07:21 PM.

  9. #144
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
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    1,099

    Sweet Deal!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim61N
    Anyone interested I would be willing to pick up extra supplies for you if you are along my route down south. Free shipping in exchange for beers
    Tim, That's too generous! I looked on a map and, technically, we're south of your starting point. So...

    This assoc. forum is a great tool for jobs like a rudder rebuild. It's like a mini-web with only the information you're looking for. There has been lots of different techniques and ideas discussed here and you should find answeres to any of your questions. Who knows, you might add a new twist to the picture yourself!

    Like C'Pete noted, that's a good price for the Si Bronze bar. One other note, being it is a 1" bar you may want to go with 5/4 mahogany, it's a full inch thick. I know, I know, I go around and around with my finish carpenter friend all of the time about how they're all involved in a national conspiracy to rip-off the public a quarter inch at a time.

    Thanks for bringing up the bearing and seals again, I knew I needed to order something. Tony G

  10. #145
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    Feb 2005
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    Anchorage, AK boat in SF Bay, CA
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    34
    Northern MN?? It think that would take a few extra beers! Brrr, you're weather is probably colder than mine!
    I wasn't thinking quite straight on the Mahogany, I will need 6/4 or a little thicker and then I will taper it down toward the tail.
    I've already spent several hours on this site reseaching the rudder issue, but it's a deep vein, every time I think I found all the info, I just dig a litter deeper and find some more treasure. The amount of info here is amazing!

  11. #146
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    Tony,
    Right on!
    You could even go to 1 1/2 (even easier to drill the long holes for the tie rods,) and beltsand the blade down to its final shape.
    Never found anyone interested in explaining just what the shape of our 40year old blade is in terms of chords. All the blades are dead flat - the ones I've seen on Ariels and Tritons.

    IMCO a better shape would be to start with the thickness of the keel where the shaft is, take the fullness back a bit and then work in a mild chord to the end of the blade. That would leave more meat over the bolts, too. The original 1" thick blade had to stay fat because of the internal fastening system. The ends I've seen are blunt and rounded.

    Modern blades get very thin at the trailing edge. They seem to terminate in a hard edge 1/4" wide. The 1/4" wide flat is canted ie NOT square or symetrical to the sides - to avoid vortexing the water leaving the rudder. One could mimic this 'modern' advancement by fabricating a rudder from hydroply and welding 1/4" plate to the shaft instead of rod. You would fasten thru the plate. Or have larger holes in the plate thru which you would glass to the opposite side. Realy strong way of doing it, to me. Ideas?

    Just fooling around.
    Last edited by ebb; 02-26-2005 at 10:09 AM.

  12. #147
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    Feb 2005
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    Anchorage, AK boat in SF Bay, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebb
    Modern blades get very thin at the trailing edge. They seem to terminate in a hard edge 1/4" wide. The 1/4" wide flat is canted ie NOT square or symetrical to the sides - to avoid vortexing the water leaving the rudder. One could mimic this 'modern' advancement by fabricating a rudder from hydroply and welding 1/4" plate to the shaft instead of rod. You would fasten thru the plate. Or have larger holes in the plate thru which you would glass to the opposite side. Realy strong way of doing it, to me. Ideas?
    Seems like that 1/4 plate would add a bit of weight back there? How about just a "cap" made of bronze or aluminum on the end of the rudder with a nice feather to reduce vortexing?
    Tim

  13. #148
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southern Maryland
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    262
    A few items:

    For CommanderPete's question, a "die" cuts threads on the outside of a rod. A "Tap" cuts threads on the inside of a hole.

    For a nice feathered edge, copper strip might work best: easy to bend into place, and has natural anti-fouling properties.

    I just got done doing the major part of my rudder rebuild: tapered two sheets of plywood, cut them to the right outline of the rudder, used various sizes of cove bits to put half of each of the bolt holes in the wood, epoxied the bolts, wood and everything into one unit, and next up is putting a layer of fiberglass over the whole job.

    I didn't use a belt sander to taper it, but instead used a table saw with a carriage and a 3/4" wide dado bit. If anybody is interested in how that works, let me know.

    I had a new shaft made, like Ebb mentions, the single shaft method. I had a machine shop drill and countersink holes for the 6" long 3/8"diameter flathead machine screws which cost me a fortune.

    Had I to do it all over again, I would not have used the bolts, and probably would have gone with the drill and tap method like Ebb mentions. Although if the hole and threads weren't all the way through the main rudder shaft, the machine shop might have problems running threads all the way to the bottom of the hole. or might just charge extra.

    And for Future Reference of All: Schubert's Welding and Machine shop in Annapolis is a one-man-show, who almost exclusively works in custom everything, and any material he can get ahold of. His number can be found on yahoo phone books. He made my rudder shaft and did it perfectly. and for an honest price ($300 for material and machining)
    -km
    aka, "sell out"
    S/V Beyond the Sea
    C&C 35 mkIII

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgnstrn
    I didn't use a belt sander to taper it, but instead used a table saw with a carriage and a 3/4" wide dado bit. If anybody is interested in how that works, let me know.
    Yeah, I'm always looking for new shop tricks
    Tony G

  15. #150
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    Hey guys,
    NO feathering. That creates the deadly vortex. Have to come to a sharp blunt end. Confusing.

    But certainly I'm confused. The shop here has a French Inca table saw but we can't swing a 3/4" bit on it. So it's a dado set in there and I'ld like to know how you tapered that rudderblade of yors on the saw, yessir.. Now I can see propping the blade in a jig and sending it thru a belt sander a whole lot of times to get that taper. Very flat blade, for sure, would be the result.

    How did you make the blade? With three 'planks' of plywood, as if they were mahogany? Thru drilled and all? That'ld be cool, you'ld have very little swelling or shrinking of the rudderblade.

    Rod or allthread would have been a lot cheaper and easier to custom because you got both ends to work. And it's very easy to thread. You would have to go to a machine shop to tap holes. It's the lining up of things that a m. shop does so well, and that what we pay for.

    Very high end carpenters known as 'mechanics' would do it all in the boat shed. And it is my visual experience that it is all in the jigs you make for the job.

    As for flat plates versus rod/bolts. If the blade was tied together with frp, the plates welded off the shaft would not have to be very long. If the rudder was made of two fullsize pieces I can see the flat welded on pieces being short and a bit longer in the middle. They could have lightening holes drilled in them too. You know, whatever.

    I have wondered if it's 'legal' to wrap the shaft with glass too? Go all the way round from one side t'other. Thats my plan. 655 takes epoxy well and it don't mind being covered, it ain't gonna corrode. The original rudder looks very elegant to me compared to all this plywood, glass and goop.

    Make sure Alaska is selling you 655 silicon bronze. This is the legentary Everdur. It can be WELDED MIG.
    Last edited by ebb; 08-19-2016 at 11:24 AM.

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