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Thread: rudder discussions

  1. #481
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    Houston, Texas
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    Say ebb, the copper keeper strap is about 1” wide, I think, and you mentioned it’s doubled over 3 times? And what gauge (how thick) is the copper strap before doubling it over? By the way, my new mahogany rudder has darkened to a nice brown— I’ll name that color brown dog.....
    Kent

  2. #482
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    Kent, Friendly name for a fine brownish!
    noticed the 'discrepancy'. But when installing my cast bronze gudgeon,
    remembered, and checked to see which side of the boat the rudder stock would drop.
    On litlgull the rudder will only drop past the rudder shoe on the port side.
    Don't think that ended up in the Manual, but it's good to know, and that's why we
    don't have a bearing in the hole at the hull-end of the rudder tube like Triton's have.
    Pearson just made the tube a little 'off'! And skipped having to remove the rudder
    shoe to drop the blade, or have two sets of gudgeons, like the Triton's.
    Last edited by ebb; 04-08-2021 at 03:38 PM.

  3. #483
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    Sep 2001
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    Post above just disappeared about 5" in the middle of post.
    Just GONE.
    I may come back. I may not.

    LAST TRY. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION

    THE GUDGEON STRAP
    I saw in this forum perhaps, was rather thin copper sheet
    with both edges bent in flat with a center seam, can't recall, but wider than
    an inch. This gave the strap a nice rounded pro look. With that in mind,
    look on amazon for copper sheet. This came up:
    2 Pcs 99.9%+ Pure Copper Sheet 6"x 6", 20 Gauge (0.81mm), Film
    Attached (both sides protected). {China product} $14.99

    Don't think strap gudgeon will be longer than 6"*. But pure copper may be too
    soft. Working it (bending as I described) might stiffen it, and the 'layering'
    will make it about 1/16". You could make a strap with 3 or 4 layers, bending
    it over on itself. PURE copper, because additions like tin will stiffen it (becomes
    bronze), and lead might leach.
    *Better make a pattern first, at least 8 or 9" length may be needed.

    This is just an idea. But I know you know what you are doing!! The strap has
    to bend when you remove the rudder. But it's not under strain much when
    you knock the rudder up when grounding. It's use is to aim the stock end
    back into its recess. [May the old pagan water gods be kind!]

    The rudder drops on my Ariel on the PORT side. You could make a fastening
    reusable by tapping its hole for a machine screw, If the keel lay up is too fibrous,
    Q-tip liquid epoxy into hole, let it set, and retap for coarse thread bronze
    machine screw(s). (I'd go large like 1/4" - 5/16"..) Just an idea.
    You are going to come back to it one day, and you should recognize by your
    fastening (don't bottom paint over it) which side the strap unscrews. So that
    it's always exactly where it should be when you button it back up later.


    amazon: 18 Ga Copper Sheet Metal, 6"x 12" 24.99. Brand: Copper wire USA.
    Material: Copper 110 (99.99% electrical grade, may have plastic film one side)

    Online find: .basic copper. Use their friendly 'copper sheet thickness guide' to look
    up the 20 gauge sheet, where they show a homemade sheet bender being used
    to control the bend of this dead soft material. So don't get this 18Ga gauge copper.
    [ 18 gauge is about 1/20" - 16 gauge is about 1/16" - either will be hard or
    impossible to bend lengthwise]
    It can't be bent. 20gauge is the limit, and they say it will be difficult.

    Maybe you can use just an unfolded 18Ga strip? So, leave it for you to find a
    larger or heavier sheet of electrical 99.99% pure copper. Maybe thinner gauge sheet
    folded over on itself twice or three times (3 layers) is the answer. Just ideas..

    99.99% will never harden or get brittle or corrode always pliable.

    Bye now
    Last edited by ebb; 04-12-2021 at 05:35 AM.

  4. #484
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    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
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    Thanks ebb. Sorry for the disappearing ink poltergeist. Good info and some ideas I can try out. I like the bolt idea, can’t say peining rod is something I have a craving for!
    Kent

  5. #485
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    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
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    Say ebb, sometime pretty soon on haul out I’m going to install the new rudder and shaft that I built earlier this year. I’m also going to replace my rudder shoe with a silicon bronze replica made by Frank Pomeranz back in 2004. I knew eventually I needed to put it on the boat. The original is pink, indicating dezincification. I know you replaced your shoe and I need your opinion on something related to the install. it seems to me that the shaft must fit perfectly into the shoe that is to say the angle has to be perfect in order to have the shaft pivot without binding at all on the rudder shoe. Did you block the new rudder shoe into position and then finagle the exact position with the shaft in the bearing? It seems to me that just installing the new shoe with the old “peen” holes through the keel may not position the new shoe exactly. Any other steps You might’ve taken to make sure the shoe and the shaft were in perfect alignment? Previously you mentioned that the rudder will probably drop to port and someone else posted that you need at least three cement blocks and a little bit more to be able to drop it out if it’s sitting on a concrete surface. I don’t want to tell the yard I need to jack hammer the concrete and then dig a hole! Ha ha!

    Also, peening is not easy! How about 5/8 silicon bronze bolts! I have some and the slotted heads fit perfectly in the shoe predrilled holes which are countersunk. Having lock washer and nuts exposed on the opposite side may slow my boat speed by .0001 knots / hour, but if I leave two of the bolts protruding, ha haaa- I have an attachment point for the shoe zinc!
    Attached Images    
    Last edited by Hull376; 11-12-2021 at 05:12 PM.
    Kent

  6. #486
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    Angry

    not finished extensive post completely erased

    have in the paast found such but not this time

    i'm pissed maybe later yo abswewr kent

  7. #487
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    SOME IDEAS ON MARRYING THE REPLICA RUDDERSHOE TO THE KEEL

    Kent, You have a predrilled hole in the shaft 'landing' on the rudder shoe.
    Normal to be a 3/4" by 3/4" deep hole, It shld be right angle to the flat.
    Which is right angle to the slant of the keel. The end of the 1"D stock is
    milled down to 3/4"D X 3/4" length. Snug fit, use TefGel when assembling
    no gell on shaft bottom.

    Notice you have very little frp material remaining in that stub that has to
    support heavy rudder shoe and even heavier rudder, tillerhead and tiller.
    Sounds like your replica won't slip over the stub and cozy against the ledge
    from the old one. Get it snug and the shaft landing
    is right angle to the cove in the keel..
    Get a dead straight six foot 1" dowel (Constantines***)..
    use it to make sure the dowel is evenly spaced down the full length of
    keel's cove -- from the center of the rudder tube in the cockpit.
    (***They only have 36", so you'll have to butt-join, it's only temporary.
    Years ago their mahogany dowels were exact measure, 1" is 1" and
    they were dead straight. Try finding that at your local bigbox. And yes,
    I wld epoxy butt-join. Dowel gives a visual exactness to this measure.)

    After much dry fitting, line the inside of the shoe with Seranwrap, fill all
    holes dips on the stub with wet epoxy mixed with chopped strand**, and
    using a carjack if appropriate seat the replica tight against the old ledge..
    Thoroly wet the stub down with a bristle brush and plain 2-part, then
    wipe it off, you can't get it dry, with a rag -- you want the structural filler to
    stick to the repairs, but you want the epoxy-soak for bond. This soak is
    done at the same time as the paste and assembly. Pour off a bit of 2-part
    and quickly wet, jab with brush, dry with rag.. in 30 seconds, pretend
    you're BobRoss making a cloud.
    (Must use a polyethylene film. Seranwrap is really the best.)
    .. .. ..
    This thing with the jack: dry fit will have gone thru every step. you have
    factored in a little wiggle room to get the fitting exactly where you want.
    You want squeeze out, but you'll be able to fix things when you remove the
    fitting -- use a non-glue bedding compound for final assembly. If you
    have a close fit, consider TefGel, no rubber.
    (**In cup mix 2-part laminating epoxy, add a modicum of 1/4-1/2" chopped
    strand, mix well, then add the fumed-silica to make a paste. First wet the
    frp stub with plain 2-part then wipe it off with a cotton rag -- this assures
    you get a bond with the filler paste.)

    [ One of the two things ebb did to help support the huge weight of the
    rudder system (rudder shoe, 20lbs of rudder stock and lbs of rudder blade,
    tillerhead, tiller, and hand on tiller)..
    was to drive two long bronze lag screws up thru the bottom of the shoe into
    what ever there is in that narrow part of the keel. Had barely enuf room to
    drill the holes, there may be enuf meat for the hexheads* to pull themselves
    in.] (Cld argue about this)

    (*Hexhead lags, because if you ever have to remove the rudder shoe, you
    merely grind the hexheads off! Have to live with the lumps on the very
    bottom of the keel and remember the lags are there. Since the bolts
    are never coming out --and you're not totally happy withwhat you found when
    predrilling the holes, oversize the holes a bit, use a dowel stick with a rag
    and wet the holes inside with runny epoxy as best you can -- make a bit of
    paste, epoxy and fumed-silica, slather the threads of the lagscrews and
    HAMMER THEM TIGHT UPTO THE RUDDER SHOE. Gets epoxy way up inside
    in unknown territory, and the lags are captured forever. Crazy, but it worked
    for me.)

    The rudder shoe shld fit within the streamlining of the hull. The space-
    finding dowel trick shld find the fore-n-aft of the shaft position. The vertical
    position of the shaft 'landing' shld be exactly right angle to the shaft along
    the cove in the keel. The cove shld be easy to prep and fair to the gelcoat.
    Center the dowel in the rudder tube, it shld be centered at the landing.
    Because Pearson had to do some finaggeling to allow the completed rudder
    to pass the keel ('on the port side') when commissioning and off, there'll
    be a mental bellcurve. One clue is to sight down the rudder tube to see
    which sjde of the keel is commissioned! Tube may be crooked, but the
    rudder (rudder-shaft) is absolutely straight.

    Sorry, I don't know the measure of the dowel-shaft from the cove, my
    rudder situation was very different from yours. The method suggested is
    only an idea, opinion in modern parlance. But it is decided by the pre-
    drilled hole for the shaft in the shoe landing. Have to get the right angles
    correct or the 3/4-3/4 hole will become a problem. Dowel it!

    Think the hardness of Si-bronze and 316 are close to equal. But drilling is
    easier thru bronze.
    Goes without saying: you have planned and predrilled the 'peening' holes
    thru the sides of the bronze shoe. Locate where the vertical lag bolt holes
    are going and drill them out too before assembly. Forget what we have
    down there: 1 1/2" width of frp keel? Odd drilling holes under the keel,
    the predrilled holes in the bronze will help keep the new longish bolts jn
    the center of the narrow 2" wide keel.
    Let's hope the replica is the marrying kind.


    I'VE ADDED SOME MORE STUFF HERE.. BEST TO YOU, CAPTAIN KENT ! !
    Last edited by ebb; 11-15-2021 at 05:59 AM.

  8. #488
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    329
    Thanks ebb – – you always know what you are doing which is great for me because I usually don’t! I kind of expected I’d have to fair in some FRP to get the new shoe to fit properly into whatever is left at the bottom of the keel but the idea with the 1” dowel is fantastic and I would never have thought of it! Using a car jack to get all the stuff in the right position with all the weight is another great suggestion. Last time I used the car jack on the boat was when I strengthened the strong back and jacked it up to put the stainless steel bar in place.
    Kent

  9. #489
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
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    Ebb, thanks for the additional info you inserted in your initial reply above. You are a real reservoir of information on these antique plastic classics. The shoe I have should marry pretty well to the keel. Dimensionally, Fred Pomeranze did a great job making the mold back in 2004. I think several of us ordered them at the time. Here I am 17 years later finally slapping it on the boat!

    Ebb, any thoughts why traffic on the site for new posts has fallen off? My theory is that we’ve covered just about every nook and cranny, bolt, mod, spar, through hole, etc and the internet visitors are just checking out the books from our library……
    Last edited by Hull376; 11-15-2021 at 02:01 PM.
    Kent

  10. #490
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,307
    Traffic has fallen off for the past ten years. Many members have moved on and the new owners of their yachts have not seen fit to join the board. And, they can easily search everything by just using Google. Except for Ebb, most of our more prolific posters have left the scene. Unfortunately, they never let us know why . . .

  11. #491
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    This post might refer back to 487, and the subject has been written about
    by ebb either here or in the gallery pages. That area, the HEEL of the KEEL
    where the rudder shoe is dapped into the fiberglass is by design a problem.

    There is a huge amount of weight and leverage concentrated here. No
    amount of finesse seems to me to be possible to get an adequate lay-up
    of polyester resin and matt-glass in this narrow, tight and difficult pocket.
    This hull, needless to say the whole class of Ariel/Commander's, had to be
    laminated as a single unit. It made the back third of the hull a challenge
    do properly. Imagine how hard it would be if you had to lay-up the inside
    of your garbage can with poly and matt, it'd be a mess.

    When I finally got A338's ruddershoe off, found that the outer half, the end,
    was broken chunks of plastic. No glass reinforcement, The shoe had been
    held in place with a single pin (that had been crudely removed and replaced
    with a small bolt that held a zinc against against the bronze shoe.. WHICH
    WAS PITTED & CORRODED.
    The boat had a homemade rectangularish rudder with a stainless shaft. Tried
    to find out how stainless cld make bronze into an anode.. Did latter find a
    more probable answer.
    So, made an attempt to rebuild the naked end of the keel. There's little that
    can be done. Here used the elegant cheat of using the ruddershoe to mold
    the repair. Had to straighten the sides of the shoe that had been seriously
    bent inward by later bolts used to keep the obviously slipping shoe in place.
    There wasn't much the glass in my repair had to hold on to.

    So, the long upward lag screws idea blinked ON. Desperation is a great
    motivator. Hope it works this time, I've cheated alot. I wonder if The Pearson
    Boys thought it through. Haven't added it up: there's an astonishing amount
    of bronze weight concentrated on very end of our keel.

    Imagine what it was like to lay-up the stern with the toxic fumes of MEK
    and polyester resin kicking off.. they had to be inside the hull to work..
    masks, fans, what did they have back then?
    __________________________________________________ ________

    Had a few conversations with Roger Winiarski, proprietor of BristolBronze.
    He told me something I cldn't believe, but then whom else is as good as his
    word? He said BristolBronze been Pearson's supplier of round bar and fittings.
    OK, but then he said, the bronze was manganese bronze, a very strong alloy
    that casts into the beautiful things like winches and other deck gear.
    Like I say, Couldn't believe it..! He assured me it was so.

    The rudder shaft in many saltwater A/C's gets corroded at the waterline inside
    the rudder tube that passes thru the bustle. Well, Why?

    ManganeseBronze (58%copper - 39%zinc - .8%manganese) is nothing more
    than a high tensil BRASS. It has too much zinc in it for it to stay in alloy. In
    salt water it turns into a battery and self destructs, corrodes. Copper alloys
    are moderately resistant to dezincification at 15% zinc. SiliconBronze 96%copper,
    2.5-6%silicon, plus a pinch of a bunch of other metals including manganese,
    lead and zinc and will still be intact 1000 years in ocean water. No guarantee.
    Last edited by ebb; 11-16-2021 at 05:10 PM.

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