Yes....the foredeck.
And Thanks!
Yes....the foredeck.
And Thanks!
-km
aka, "sell out"
S/V Beyond the Sea
C&C 35 mkIII
Info Overload...
Ok I have completely lost the forest among the trees. Would someone just please TELL ME from where and what kind of balsa I need to get so that I can finish this budget of mine and decide if I want to tackle this lovely deck recore project!?!??! I've been bouncing around the web for six hours, and I swear I don't know a bit more than when I started except of course that there are 8 million different kinds of balsa core.
And theoretically, we're talking about total square footage that would approximate both side decks in toto. How much epoxy would that take? Two gallons? Three? Twelve?
Can I just use 3/8 marine plywood double coated with thinned epoxy? Now THAT sounds like the way to go (which I'm sure it isn't).
A very frustrated,
J.
There have been many threads on Tim's Triton site about core jobs.
At least one thread spoke about materials needed. It's a bit imprecise, naturally, but may give a rough idea. The sq. footage on a Triton deck might be 1/3 more?
http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewt...ght=balsa+core
Last edited by commanderpete; 06-15-2005 at 05:19 PM. Reason: I felt like it, you got a problem with that?
Using ply or balsa is going backwards , closed cell is the way to go.
How much epoxy do you need , how much beer can you drink , couldn't tell you either one without seeing you or the boat.
You got plenty of time to get the epoxy, it will take more than an hour or 2 to open up them decks .
Just do it !
When you core the decks , you use thickened epoxy , not thinned . No voids!
Don't you mean the other way around? When working where I might encounter a void, I have been flowing thinned. Ground out tiny bubbles repairing circuit cards years ago, sure don't want any lurking in any part of my hull.Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin
Jeremy,
Would like to see some more broad views of your boat, many times others will see something they have had an issue with (good or bad) that can be helpful. Really, most of us just like to look at these boats
As I understand your posts, on calculating the costs, you are trying to get a rough idea of what you are getting into. I understand and admire your rational approach.
My experience has been that it will be very difficult to accurately estimate the cost, but that the material and labor prove a good investment. I believe the more important basis for the decision must be based on something not so easily expressed on a balance sheet.
Neither the heart nor the eye are the guide that Hollywood make them out to be in life. Boats may well be the exception to this rule.
IMHO.
Nope, thick epoxy .
Thin epoxy is a sealer only!
You want to bed the core in thick epoxy , thinned stuff can run out where you can't see it. Lay done a layer of "P-nut butter" and push the core into it so that you get an ooze all around , then you know there are no voids . Plus thickened epoxy is stronger than pure resin and thinning epoxy weakens it even further . Been doing this s**t for 40 years now and learned a thing or two.
I'm becoming one of the old timers and all I really wanted to be was be an old rummy! What are you if you drink Bushmils?
Do you have any product suggestions?
pvc foam
Get it here at surf board shops. Expensive, think it has to be imported from Germany. You are (as I understand, not having had to do it. YET) going to have to shape it once it's gooped in place. Like over at the toerail, where it skinnies out. But it is a pleasure to work with - you can, for instance, feather it down to a feather and the foam still holds together. Pvc foam and epoxy seems to be an unbeatable combination.
Cabosil is the thickner. Have added milled glass fiber (a heavy dust) to thicken epoxy and get strength. It's advertised as being useful for filetting, but what's happened to me is that as the filler goes toward set the stuff will thin (exotherm) and loosen up. Don't think you want to get the gel too stiff. I think a little flow is a good thing on wide horizontal surfaces. And I would butter the deck and the piece going in to be sure to minimize bubbles and dry spots.
I also believe that putting smaller pieces into deck isn't a bad thing because as you 'tile' them together you would be creating mini I beams which could be argued also tie the inside skin to the new deck skin you'll be putting down. The foam has great integrity and strength, so I beams aren't really necessary. But penetration of the epoxy into the foam surface isn't as much as it would be with end grain balsa. Everett liked balsa because it could take compound curves.* You'll also find shaping with sanders pretty easy too, as the foam has resistence to it.
*Took out a good piece of the polyester and foam on the cabin. Penetration of the polyester into the endgrain was deep, and the joining of the two skins and the balsa complete, they could not be separated. Except by rot. And it took a long time for that to happen.
Assume you will be doing it from the top. I found the inner skin on 338 to be very thin. If I had to replace the core I would think the inner skin after the deck and the rot were removed would not be able to be worked on, scraping and grinding, because it'd be too flimsey.
Last edited by ebb; 06-16-2005 at 04:09 PM.
OK, let me be more specific...
If you have recored a deck in your life, and that boat did not subsequently sink, I would like to know what products you used and if you were happy with how it was still doing X, Y and Z years later.
Mike, I know that you place the new core on a thickened epoxy layer on the lower skin. My suggestion about thinned epoxy was to coat the cut and shaped plywood for the core BEFORE placing it in the deck thereby sealing it so it wouldn't rot, and I won't have to do this again for another 42+ years. Has anyone ever heard of anyone doing this? Or anything LIKE it?
I agree that closed cell and its inherent rot-proof, inorganic nature make it a mighy fine core material, but it's cost prohibitive to me. Simple as that. And let's not forget that a properly executed and sealed balsa deck lasts a long, LONG time and costs far less than the exotics.
By way of explanation, before college I lived and cruised on a Paceship 26 for about five years making most of the mistakes that I now intend to avoid. I'm aiming for "seaworthy." Not perfect. Not restored. Not museum quality. There might be dings in the gelcoat. OK. The brightwork might be faded. Fine. There will also be completely new standing rigging with 1/4" - 316SS and Sta-Lok terminals, 200' of 1/4" chain, three slightly oversized anchors, all new electrical wiring and, so it appears, a new deck if I purchase #120.
Beyond a sound hull and deck and killer ground tackle, the rest is detail work, detail work for which I know it is almost impossible to specify costs. Still, I can easily figure that 1/4" wire is $1.45/ft, and Sta-lok terminals are $38.50 each. I need around 161' of the former, and I need 16 of the latter. A 22-lb Bruce anchor is $122.99. Chain is $1.47/ft. See? (BTW, these are all real prices that I've found on the web. If you need to know where I've found them, please ask!) I'm not looking to balance to the penny. I'd just like to be able to say that a new deck will be around X dollars. It CAN'T be that hard. Civil procedure was hard. Cognitive neuropsychology was hard. My job.... let's not go there.
OK enough rambling.But now you can see where I'm going with this. So I'm still begging for suggestions.
I'll post some more pics later tonight. I need to Photoshop them down, or Bill might come after me.
All the best!
J.
For your amusement: "Wooden boats regularly die early deaths of natural causes; fiberglass boats must be assassinated." - Don Casey
Mr. El B.,
I can relate because, I too, am Nerdly.....and proud of it.
Maybe it is the Engineer in me.....OK....it is the engineer in me.
I have a great resource for this kind of stuff:
Oceana Limited in Annapolis.
www.oceanaltd.com
They have a crappy website, but awesome hardcopy catalog.
Their number is 1-800-523-8890.
They cater mostly to commercial-type boatbuilders, marinas, etc.
but...you asked about core material.
Here are some prices for 1/2" thick material (I think that is ~ the right size)
ATC Core-Cell, "A500 grade", Plain, no cross cuts: $167/(4'x8'sheet)
Baltek, "contourkore", "CK100" grade, $32.60/(2'x4'sheet)
ditto......ditto....."AL-600R" grade, $36.74/(2'x4'sheet)
Airex PVC closed cell foam, "contourable" $51.78/(24"x42"sheet)
ditto......ditto...."rigid" $115/(48"x58"sheet)
Then there are some composites that may not be suitable for core on decks, but maybe as a replacement for plywood (but really, I have no idea, but from looking and playing with the samples in their shop, it can be really really stiff):
Coosa Composites, composite panels, Highly rigid, with fiberglass strand and roving inside the panel:
$303 - $209 depending on density and strength, all for 4'x8' sheets.
like I said, these are all prices for 1/2" material, but they have others available, and also some other "styles", like material that has more cuts to make it more flexible.
For stories and experiences, the Triton guys have some good accounts on the web, both with balsa, and with composites.
For how much epoxy, not sure, but my experience with epoxy is that it gets used up ~twice as fast as I expect. Not sure why.
As for epoxy vs polyester, there are plenty of opinions on both, but again, there are some accounts on using epoxy and using regular polyester from the Triton guys. And for more opinions on E vs P, plenty in a few threads on this forum to digest before making that decision.
Hope this helps a little.
-km
aka, "sell out"
S/V Beyond the Sea
C&C 35 mkIII
As boat stuff goes, those prices don't sound too expensive to me. Two 4x8 sheets at max needed to recore the deck and one 2x4 for part of the cabin trunk -- say $500 total?
Foam cores
Ebb,
I get my foam cores from the same place I was buying surfboard foam back in the 60's.
I comes in 2x4 , 4x4, 4x8 etc, sheets and in thicknesses from 1/4" to 2" and possibly thicker.
I like one called Wes-Core , looks like a slice of honeycomb , some is yellow and some green, works easy , bonds to epoxy or poly resin .
I don't like thickening epoxy with cabosil as a general thickener it is too hard and brittle , milled cotton fiber is good along with a dash of "Barney Dust" .
Fine hardwood sawdust (wood flour) from the bandsaw is far superior to cabosil
Even better is a pre-thickened epoxy out of Fla. and it is much cheaper than WEST, EAST or SYS-3 . 1:1 very forgiving mix, choice of fast medium or slow hardeners.
ElBee, Ply is probably the worst core material choice I have ever seen or repaired . Boats with ply core decks are generally valued lower in surveys than a balsa core boat.
Water travels through ply from one end to the other with ease . When you paint the ply with epoxy thinned or not , it wont penetrate past the glue lines if it gets that far. In other words it can still rot, seen a lot of it too!
Good ply will cost almost as much as good core and be harder to install .
You would be better off using balsa core , a lot faster , cleaner and cheaper. Use end grain Mahogany blocks where hardware will be mounted .
Use a non-blushing epoxy , because it will take many sessions to do the job.
Acetone is not epoxy thinner BTW.
BTW,
In the last year I mixed up over $20,000 worth of epoxy on one project .
Lots and lots of good stuff here.
Stuff was talking about is solid uncut pvc foam, when you say 'divinycel foam' in the shop they'll take you to grey or green vinyl foam. Solid small cells, fairly stiff in sheet, but light and NOT brittle. Well, you can break it if you want. There's not er and satisfying with the right stuff.
I wouldn't use the cut stuff because I'm superstitious, all those mostly unfilled cuts in the new waterproof deck. Haven't done it, but I suspect that easily handled smaller/longer pieces would be a way to go. There isn't much camber but you'd still have to force a wide piece into place, while 'planks' would go in easier and fast ('course you have to prefit) Am I correct?
Cutout is factory and came with a teak or mahogany hatch cover. The ob throttle is not its reason. That is usually used in the vertical position. The opening is for accessing the engine mounting screws and (unless you have a Nissan verticle pull) for pulling the starting rope. It also is an added source of ventilation - a big problem when running the engine.
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